The Muslim’s-Guide to converse with Atheists/Anti-Theists:

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Author’s note:
Unfortunately, usually, when it comes to the subject of having any form of intelligent, civil discourse, with any Atheist/Anti-Theist, concerning Theism vs. Atheism/Anti-Theism, it ends up being a conversation that always goes on tangents, which are the faults of both Theists & Atheists/Anti-Theists, who engage in these types of conversations, debates, arguments, etc. However, ironically, for Theists, Muslims especially, they never realize (until it’s too late, and when they’ve said all of the wrong things, either inaccurately or completely out-of-context) that it’s never about “winning” an argument with any Atheist/Anti-Theist. The objective is to simply not lose an argument with an Atheist/Anti-Theist. We, as Muslims, have to be very intelligent, tactful, and wise, whenever conversing with people of an Atheist/Anti-Theist disposition. However, one of the major things which Muslims, Theists, generally, get caught-up with, when conversing with Atheists/Anti-Theists, is the whole “Scientific-Fallacy”…I’ll explain what I mean by “Scientific-Fallacy”.

This is what I mean by the “Scientific-Fallacy”:

Whenever Atheists/Anti-Theists converse with those who are Theists, they always, in order to dominate the conversation, drag the issue into the realm of Science, and then challenge people like us to formulate a Divinity-Theory/Law, in which we’re then pigeon-holed into trying to prove the existence of Allah via the “Scientific-Method”. And, ironically, sadly, we fall for for this entrapment, every time/all of the time.

Now, the best way to counter this “Scientific-Fallacy” is simply the following:

Make the point that by using the “Scientific-Method”, to attempt to “prove” the existence of a “Divine-Creator”, is self-admission that the creator of the Universe thus exists within the confines of the Physical-Universe. Now, we as Muslims, we know, based upon what Allah teaches us, in the Qur’an, that the Universe has 2-dimensions: Physical & Non-Physical. Now, with Allah being who He is, we know that there is no way that He can possibly exist within either dimension of the Universe, because He is uncreated. Also, you can only use the “Scientific-Method” to detect the existence of things which exists within the confines of the Physical-Universe, and since this is the case, you cannot use the “Scientific-Method” to prove the existence of Allah, and Atheists/Anti-Theists know this fully well. But, they also know that it’s so easy to trap-up Theists, who are not on to their entrapment. So, because one cannot use the “Scientific-Method”, to prove the existence of Allah, that’s what revelation is for. However, the problem is that Atheists/Anti-Theists don’t recognize, respect, or accept revelation. Basically, it gets to the point of the Atheist/Anti-Theist point of view having nothing to do with anything Scientific.

One of the other things that they challenge us to do is to disprove all of the “Scientific-Proofs” of things like “Evolution”. Even though, ironically, there still isn’t any definitive proofs for almost all of the elements of “Evolution”, “Darwinian-Evolution”, particularly, which clearly explains why generally, largely, “Evolution” is still, til this very day, classified as merely a “Scientific-Theory” as opposed to a “Scientific-Law”. And, if a Theist, a Muslim, especially, says that they even accept all that they interpret Science to be, which would include “Evolution”, but, that Allah is the one who is responsible for all of what, “Evolution” teaches, takes place within the Universe, you will be plainly called “wrong” by any Atheist/Anti-Theist, just because you testify that a Divine-Creator is responsible for all that exists. And, this also proves that Atheism/Anti-Theism is an `Aqidah/Theology, because they believe in the non-existence of a Divine-Creator-even though they claim that Theists cannot provide proof for the existence of a Divine-Creator, they themselves do the exact opposite; but, ironically, they have no proof for what they claim is the non-existence of a Divine-Creator. Also, one of the key things which Muslims must be careful of are the classic “Spin-Off Arguments” which Atheists/Anti-Theists love to use to make Muslims, and Theists generally, look really stupid.

Typically, almost always, a Muslim/Theist in general, would say that nothing comes from nothing, that all which exists has an origin. But, then, an Atheist/Anti-Theist would attempt to trip you up, and spin that argument right back around towards you & then challenge you, as to why is it that Allah has no origin, yet everything else does. And, the only way to dispute that spin-off argument is to simply use revelation, which, unfortunately, they will deny. Honestly, that’s really the only edge that we, as Muslims, have over Atheists/Anti-Theists, the Qur’an, revelation itself. Simply from a Human-level, we’re only 50/50 when conversing with Atheists/Anti-Theists.

I say that for the following reasons:

Without the mercy & gift of revelation, it is not completely-possible to prove the existence of Allah, definitively. And, when it comes to the belief in a Divine-Creator, when compared to the disbelief of a Divine-Creator, with revelation aside, we’re only at 50/50 with Atheists/Anti-Theists…Meaning, they can only disbelieve in a Divine-Creator, but, they have absolutely no proof that a Divine-Creator doesn’t exist, it’s just that they’ve now replaced a Divine-Creator with their intellect, egos & desires as gods. While for us, without revelation to substantiate our belief, that’s all that it is, a belief. And, this is why knowledge of Islam is so important for us to learn, know & live.

My conclusion:

This is not the only ways to combat, ward-off Atheism/Anti-Theism. However, if one had no idea how to previous to reading this article, then, I’m pretty confident that, with Allah’s help & guidance, this will empower Muslims with the necessary tools to keep Atheists/Anti-Theists at bay, so as to not allow their corrupt beliefs, in the non-existence of a Divine-Creator, to cause doubts in the purity, authenticity of our Islamic-Beliefs.

Gareth Bryant/2013

41 responses »

      • There’s a problem with your argument. You argue that the people that don’t believe in your god carry the burden of proof. No one interprets it this way.

        If someone comes up to you and says “There’s a divine cheese on the moon.” No sane person would take his word for it.
        However, If you say “There probably is no divine cheese. There’s no proof for it.” No one would argue with you.

        http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

      • Well, I’ve already admitted that the existence of Allah cannot be proven through man-made means, like the “Scientific-Method”. So, because of this, revelation is necessary. And, again, unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be good-enough for you. However, here’s something from the revelation of the Qur’an which may interest you: Allah tells us, in the 96th chapter of the Qur’an (Surat-il-`Alaq/the Chapter of the Ova) that Human beings, after Adam & Eve (Peace be upon them both), of course, are perpetually created from the Ova (Fallopian-Eggs). Now, of course, since the knowledge of the Ovum, as well as its functions, were not known in our 7th-century world, and in fact, it wasn’t until 1827, based upon the finds of the German-Embryologist, Karl Ernst von Baer, definitively identified the Ovum for what it truly was, exactly 13-centuries after Allah had definitively told Muhammad (Peace be upon him) that Humans were perpetually created from. Allah, out of justice would not reveal something in a way that was not intelligible to His respective initial-audience, whom were largely, illiterate desert-people (Arabs more specifically). So, Allah decided to use the word `Alaq, to describe the actual Fallopian-Egg. Now, the term `Alaq, often, mistranslated as “Blood-Clot”, is actually a plural of the word `Alaqah, which in turn, is a derivative of the verb `Alaqa, meaning “To cling, to leech, to attach”. And, in fact, all of the qualities of this verb, `Alaqa, apply directly to the nature of the Ovum: it clings, latches onto, it leeches off of, it attaches itself to the Endometrium/Vaginal-Wall of the Woman. And, we know that “Blood-Clots” don’t do that.

    • That’s actually a fair-question. The answer that I was going to give you is actually within the answer to the response of Alexander Stenfeldt’s comment. I apologize for not not giving you a separate answer.

      • Well a couple of points:
        1) The Quran clearly copied what the Greeks thought about embryology.
        http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CJ/CJ533.html

        2) Even if one particular fact about reality was described accurately (it wasn’t here) by the Quran’s authors, it doesn’t mean you have any evidence for the rest of it’s more ludicrous claims.

        I’m sure you can find some facts that are true in most holy books ie water is wet, doesn’t mean you accept the fantastical claims that are furthermore logically impossible, like an omniscient/omnipotent god existing.

      • This link that you’ve posted has two-problems:

        One, it mentions that the word Nutfah means only Semen. Rather, in fact, it actually means both Semen & Ovum. Also, `Alaqah doesn’t at all mean “Congealed Blood-Clot”. Rather, it really means Ovum (a Fallopian-Egg); this is a result of incredible lack of true-knowledge of the Qur’an, in the context of the Arabic-Language.

        Two, The substances which Allah mentions that Humans were created from: mud, dirt, dust, clay, etc., are all terrestrial-substances. So, Allah is basically saying that the Human being (Adam & Eve [Peace be upon them both]) was created from the Earth: all of these respective substances, even though different in their own rights, they’re still earthly-substances. Also, Allah never says that Humans were created from Water. The word “Ma'” in the Qur’an has three official meanings in the Qur’an, which are not “Water”, and they are: “Liquid”, “Fluid”, and “Semen”.

      • In regards to what you’ve asked, which is a good-question, let me
        answer it, this way: One, the knoledge of anything scientific, either
        via observation of the Universe, or discovery (through
        experimentation, etc), comes from Allah. And, it is He whom gives
        whatever He wants to whomever He so wills.
        Two, when Allah mentions things like basic Embryology, it’s
        something that the Arabs, as a people, were ridiculously ignorant,
        societall, and, overwhelmingly illiterate. So, naturally, out of His
        mercy & justice had decided to reveal the Qur’an in a way that the
        first-recipiants would easily understand, in a very simplex format.

    • Allah mentions that the Human being was created from Ova/Fallopian-Eggs(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.96). Also, Allah tells us that the Human being was created from Semen, from the Protate-Gland(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.86, V.5-7) and obviously Sperm, which we now know scientifically, travels to the Protate-Gland, where it then ejects from the Human male, fertilizing the Ovum (Fallopian-Egg), 13-centuries before German-Scientist Karl Ernst von Baer discovered the functionality of the Ovum, in 1827, and 11-centuries before Antonie van Leeuwenhoek was able to detect Sperm via the usage of a microscope, 1677.

  1. Oh, this is one little gem which effectively shows that you have very little understanding of scientific terms and what they mean and science in general;

    ” “Darwinian-Evolution”, particularly, which clearly explains why generally, largely, “Evolution” is still, til this very day, classified as merely a “Scientific-Theory” as opposed to a “Scientific-Law”.”

    Scientific theories do not evolve into laws. In science the highest is theory. It is a set of abstractions and laws that explain a set of observations. These can either be expressed in words, or as in physics, equations. Scientific theories are not beyond being dis-proven, providing the right evidence is found that contradicts the theory. Theories also make powerful predictions of the future state of systems they describe that can be tested for. Today we are still trawling through all the prediction made by Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity[GR]. Some of the predictions made, as still beyond our capabilities, yet some parts of it have proven uses. Without GR the satnav in your car would be utterly useless and no good to anyone, as the GPS satellites have GR programmed into them to take into account the difference in the relative passage of time for them that is different for Earth.

    Another good scientific theory comes from the world of biology and medicine, Germ Theory. Without it, we would not be able to combat all the infectious diseases in the world today by coming up with new anti viral and antibiotic medicines and vaccines against them. Not bad for something you think is merely guess work.

  2. Greeting Bredren:

    I believe(for sake of this demonstration) that God lives on the Planet Kolob(Mormons) I received this ‘revelation’/vision and I have faith/strong belief without evidence that it is true. Furthermore I can give you a passage in the book of Mormon.

    Book of Abraham in The Book of Mormon:
    “saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God;….and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.”[5]

    Do you believe me? If not can you prove to me that God is not on the Planet Kolob?

    • Well, regarding to your comment/question, the answer is very simple: Allah does not exists on any plane, as in a planet, etc., like any of His creation, because He is not like any of His creation. And, as I’ve already reiterated, Allah does not exists within the Universe; rather He exists outside of the Universe. Because, if He in fact did live upon anything within the Universe, it would thus prove that He would be confined or obligated to reside somewhere within the Universe, which would also mean that He would be regulated by the norms of the Universe, which in turn would mean that He is not eternal, or divine. If one is eternal/divine, one cannot be regulated by anything/anyone whom is not eternal/divine. And, it’s very obvious that the Universe is not eternal/divine.

  3. Well according to the Book of Mormon he exists near the Planet Kolob.

    I ask the same question you asked.

    “Prove that Allah doesn’t exist.” So Can you prove to me he doesn’t exist near the Planet Kolob?

    • I’ve already mentioned that Allah cannot exist within the Universe, because, that would disqualify Him of being the Creator of the Universe. Realistically, it would be impossible for anyone/anything to be able to maintain the Universe, if they themselves are a part of the Universe. And, it seems that, according to what you mentioned about “The Book of Mormon”, that Allah (obviously the Mormons don’t say Allah, but, I’m saying Allah, in regards to the Creator of the Universe), the Mormons are attempting to marginalize the nature of Allah, by trying to make Him appear to be just like the creation itself, subject to “live” or “reside” somewhere. Allah is in no need of a residence, clothing, food, or anything else which things, within the Universe itself, need.

  4. Quick note: I asked the question again because you are stating (without evidence) what you believe or what’s in the Qu’ran. I don’t believe in the Qu’ran I am a believer in the Book of Mormon in the Book of Abraham. So can you disprove my assertion?

    • It’s very simple: Allah is not like any of His creation. So, since this is the case, this also means that He is in no need of any type of dwelling-place or residence. Now, based upon that fact, He, being all-powerful, as He his, if you agree to this as well, has no weaknesses or deficiencies. The entire purpose of the necessity of any type of residence, dwelling or housing, etc. is to have some type of protection from the elements (cold, rain, wind, etc.). However, Allah, being the Master of the Universe, needs protection from nothing.

  5. If I may indulge in pointing out the classical errors the author makes in his arguments.

    1. First, he comes up with a new kind of fallacy, which he calls the “scientific fallacy” to avoid the challenge put forth by many skeptics to prove that there is a God scientifically. I don’t know what this fallacy entails; is the author claiming that it is fallacious to refuse to believe in the existence of something which cannot be proven scientifically? Is it fallacious, for example, to refuse to believe in black magic, future-predicting crystal balls, claims of psychic powers, claims of extra sensory perception, claims of remote viewing, etc? Or do these things also get a free pass like God when it comes to questioning their validity?

    2. He claims that “Muslims know” that there are two dimensions of the universe…the physical and non-physical. Okay, I was a Muslim for 22 years and never heard that one. May be dimension is not the best word here, because scientists often use dimensions to describe time and space, not physical world, and “magical world” where God resides. Perhaps what author is describing here could be described as whatever lies outside the bounds of our universe. We currently have no scientific way of measuring whatever it is, and that may be God, but the author does come clean with his admission that he cannot prove God with the scientific method. That’s progress.

    3. He goes on to emphasize on the importance of revelation, which is not worthy of discussion. Revelations exist in many religions, with each one claiming to be the truth. I simply don’t think a God which created a universe consisting of trillions and trillions of stars had so much problem revealing one single religion, which was clear and precise, not multiple religions that are vague, and open to many interpretations.

    4. He then proceeds to make a very juvenile mistake of equating a theory with a hypothesis in regards to evolution. This has been discussed so many times before that it appears that someone bringing this up has never studied the counter arguments to their position. This argument stems from poor understanding of science. In general use of the term, a theory is interchangeable with “hypothesis”; however, in scientific use, a theory is a principle or body of principles for explaining observed facts or phenomena. Gravity is a theory, Big Bang is a theory (which Muslims often use to prove existence of a creator), expanding universe is a theory (which again, Muslims use to claim foreknowledge of science in the Quran), general relativity is also a theory. Are all these theories a lie perpetuated to dismiss religion? Or may be Muslims like to pick on one theory that happens to show that humans in fact evolved from primates, and Adam and Eve were just fables people came with when they had no knowledge of evolution?

    5. Then he makes another juvenile mistake by asking the atheists to prove the “non-existence” of God. Really? Ever heard of the impossibility of proving a negative? At this point I am sure the author has never studied the counter-arguments to his position. Perhaps studying Russel’s Teapot would help. Can you prove there isn’t an invisible alien fairy in my backyard that wants me to tell you that your religion is a false religion? That fairy “revealed” it to me.

    Conclusion: Out of all his points, the only one worth discussing is whether God “resides” out side of universe, and whether he/she has any “control” on this universe given that universe follows a set a laws. How would that leave any room for interference is beyond me? Does God, for example interfere when a sick child’s parents pray for health? then why do countries with worst access to hath care have highest child mortality rates? Where do we get to observe the “effect” God has on it’s creation. So far it seems like when we pray to God, we are just asking an imaginary friend to help us.

    • Okay, it’s very obvious as to why you became an Atheist in the first-place:

      1. You probably never received any authentic, grounded, fundamental Islamic-Education, growing-up. You probably learned whatever minimal knowledge of Islam that you did have from ignorant Muslims, whom did not have sufficient-knowledge of anything.

    • 2. It’s very obvious that you’ve avoided the entire discussion-point: since there is obviously no way to prove the existence of a divine-creator, via the scientific-method, likewise, there is no way to disprove it either. And, as I’ve already mentioned in my article, it’s not possible to prove, definitively, the existence of Allah, without revelation.

    • Most people like you, whom were Born-Muslims, yet, left Islam, leave Islam for some pretty universal reasons: one particular reason is simply that you’re no longer content with following religious guidelines & wanna live your life as you see fit, meaning, you see Islam as a hinderence to your life, and Atheism/Anti-Theism provides the best justification, in your minds & hearts, to leave Islam.

      But, ironically, there’s no such thing as a true Atheist/Anti-Theist, because everyone worships something, whether they’re willing to admit it or not. As Allah says, in the Qur’an, about those who take their Egos/Desires as their gods.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.45, V.23)

    • Also, it’s very easy to just claim that there is no god, without displaying any sort of evidence, which no one has ever been able to produce, meaning, no one in Human-History has ever been able to disprove the existence of a divine-creator. And, we’re still waiting for people like you to come up with just one significant proof that a divine-creator des not exist…We’re still waiting.

      • Gareth, again, you display your juvenile etiquettes of debating by making this about me, instead of focusing on my arguments. That’s called ad-hominem fallacy. It’s okay though, I know the Quran also makes all kinds of assumptions about people who disagree with it, so naturally you follow the guidelines of the quran, and start making guesses about my Islamic education and my motivations instead of addressing my criticism.

        Since we are going to go there, it’s pretty asinine to assume that someone who left Islam didn’t receive “authentic Islamic education”, or wanted to live a”sinful” life. I don’t have to let go of my religion to live a sinful life, I know plenty of Muslims who believe in God and religion, but continue to practice their sinful lifestyles. I also know people who are hafiz that have left the fold of religion, I know people who were former Islamic scholars who debated in favor of Islam, who have left their religion behind. Did they not receive “authentic” education as well? So if I have your assertions right, anybody who leaves Islam was not educated properly in Islamic theology anyways? Is that the argument you are making? A “universal” reason to leave Islam is to live as I see fit. Well, I expected better of you considering how Muslims are always complaining about stereotypes. You don’t know me, but you made all these assumptions about me because I left Islam.

        You final comment about proving that “God doesn’t exist” doesn’t sound any better the second time. You can’t prove a negative. You don’t tell the accused “prove that you didn’t commit the crime”, he or she is innocent until proven guilty. The proof of burden is on you. I am not the one claiming there is no God, I am saying I don’t know, and given how all the religions are incompatible with each other, my best guess is that religion and God was a man made thing. But I am willing to change my mind when I see substantial evidence, which is also scientific. You are the one making extra ordinary claims, without any evidence what so ever.

  6. Why don’t you believe in other gods that other religious nuts believe in? There’s nothing to prove them either. If you were brought up in the era of the Vikings, you would be believing in the Norse gods like Thor. You literally bring to the table no reason to believe in this non-physical realm other than the ‘teachings’ of an antiquated story book which tells you to, through your obvious indoctrination.

    What drives you to believe in something that probably doesn’t exist? You claim you’re an intellectual, so I guess you don’t believe in fairies or unicorns? However, nobody can ever disprove their existence so, using your own logic of why you believe in god, surely you should believe in these other fantasies too?

    You provide absolutely no argument but yet again another (mis)interpretation of ancient text for your reasons to believe.

    I really do feel sorry for anyone who believes in a higher order and such literature. It makes the world less beautiful to believe that you were ‘created’. I’m afraid you are completely wrong in saying that evolution is still a theory. I’m afraid the truth is – and it is widely known – that evolution is a confirmed FACT. It is accepted by all because it is as an observation of how species grow, develop and change. To deny it is to stay faithful to ill-informed religious control and ignore what your eyes, ears and brain see, show, hear and understand for you. The need to involve and waste your whole life devoted to something so obscure, farcical and corrupt is insane. I’m going to make the most and live until I die, because this is the only life I’ve got and everyone secretly knows it.

    • Now, if you were so confident that a divine-creator doesn’t exist, then why did you ask me, in the beginning of your response, “What drives you to believe in something that probably doesn’t exist?” Why did you use the word PROBABLY, as oposed to the word DEFINITELY? The fact that you used probably, infers, by definition that you yourself don’t truly believe in the non-existence of a divine-creator, or at least not as confidently as you want to desperately project.

  7. Atheism is, basically, a pessimistic situation. It is not believing in a god, or aggressively believing there is no God, or choosing to not implement any faith otherwise unbelief relating to God, etc. either taste is specified to atheism, it is a pessimistic situation.

  8. No doubt atheism immoral, evil, sinful, satanic or unholy? Atheists are one of the most hated groups in the United States. Many religious people openly admit they think that atheism is immoral. We have no reason to believe that atheism can be morally permissible and we have no reason to think atheism is moral, and then we should agree that atheism is no doubt immoral.

  9. Mujahid Ali Khan…

    Are you saying that without belief(defined as: acceptance or assumption that something is true) in an invisible entity Allah or Yahweh or Jesus Christ humans have no morals? Would you murder, rape, steal, etc. if you found out today there’s no god(s)?

    Living without faith…definition…strong belief without evidence. You and those like you are morally superior because you believe in an invisible entity/god strongly without evidence? Those that require evidence for their beliefs are in a pessimistic situation because they don’t blindly believe in invisible gods… this makes absolutely no sense.

    You talk about morals and hate in the same post. …atheist are the most hated….by whom? Believers who are morally superior?…very inconsistent.

  10. Given your assertion that there is a physical and a non-physical realm, is prayer physical as it exists in this realm or is it non-physical (in which case how does it start in this realm)? Please explain how it makes the jump from one ‘realm’ to another.

    • Firstly, good question & I thank you for it.

      Secondly, Prayer, like any other physical act of worship, Islamically, is of three types, mental/emotional (will, intention, ambition, motive, etc.), verbal (speech), mechanical (physical/mundane actions). Now, all of these actions, regardless of their respective categories, are mundane in nature, yet, are still a conduit, to connect one with one’s creator.

      And, it’s not an issue of something “jumping” from one realm to another. It’s just simply the fact that every spiritual high or low moment has a direct effect upon our physical selves. Likewise, any/all of our mundane high or lows have direct effects upon our spiritual selves.

      If I didn’t answer your question tyhe way you seem fit, please, let me know.

  11. The Day when We will fold the heaven like the folding of a [written] sheet for the records. As We began the first creation, We will repeat it. [That is] a promise binding upon Us. Indeed, We will do it (21:104)

    see that verse.It is indicating the bigbang and the final destination of our universe.1400 years ago,it was totally unimaginable.

    It is the proof that : Islam comes from Allah.Even Allah made his prophet illiterate(no institutional education) to stop the mouth of kafir saying that ,Muhammad (sm) copied

  12. The air you can’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not there . Excuse me a world coming Into without a creator is rubbish. Well if u donot believe in him than I havent seem the atom or theory of evolution by myself so I will believe there is no universe no mankind all rubbish .

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