Enough with this ridiculous “Gay-Mosques” business!!!

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Author’s note:
This phenomenon of “Gay-Mosques” or “Gay-Friendly Mosques” has been plaguing the Muslim-Community, in the United States, for some time. Now, this phenomenon has spread elsewhere, like in Paris, France, for example. This entire concept of a “Gay-Mosques” or “Gay-Friendly Mosque” is not only utterly ridiculous, but, misleading & deceptive as well…don’t worry, I’ll get into why.

So, for Muslims, of liked-minds, whom also find this notion just as ridiculous as I do, the best way to respond to something like this would be the following:

If some group of Muslims who happen to be Child-Molesters, or Rapists, who want to open a Mosque, which cater to Child-Molesters, or Rapists, let’s see how many people would be up-in-arms in support of that. I mean, really, intelligently observe, reflect upon how ridiculous that would sound, a “Pedophile/Pedophile-Friendly Mosque”, or a “Rapist/Rapist-Friendly Mosque”.

Would any Muslim, Non-Muslim, or any morally-sound and/or intelligent Human being, whom you know, actually take a notion such as that seriously?!!! Well, then, what in the Hell would make anyone think that a “Homo-Mosque/Homo-Friendly-Mosque”, or a “Gay/Gay-Friendly-Mosque” would be something that is a thing to establish?!!!

The Mosques are the properties of Allah(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.72, V.18). And as such, are required to be established upon certain things, mainly, the following:

1. They have to be places where only Allah is worshipped

2. They have to be places where all of the 5-prayers are made, 24/7.

3. They have to be places where the Muslims are in complete-control over & cannot be converted into something other than Mosques.

Now, Imma just concentrate on the first condition that I’ve just mentioned:
Allah clearly states, “Have you not seen one, whom after Allah has guided, take his own desires as a god, then Allah, knowingly, left him astray, as well as sealing his hearing, heart & sight as a punishment? Do you not reflect?”.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.45, V.23)

As Muslims, we’ve all been given divine-guidance from Allah. However, unfortunately, instead of cherishing this great favor & blessing, from the Lord of the Universe, we blatantly insult this guidance, by rebelling against the commandments of Allah & His Messenger, Muhammad (Peace be upon him). To put it even more plainly: Homosexuality, like any & every other sin, in Islam, is not acceptable to Allah, at all. But, sadly, the Muslims, in order to continue to be accepted by those whom are Non-Muslims, in Non-Islamic societies, and/or as a result of just falling for the deception of the Devil, have decided to compromise on everything & stand-up for nothing. And, this issue is not very different than any other issue that Muslims have sold-out on.

Now, going back to what I had mentioned, concerning, the Mosques being the properties of Allah, this is something that has to be taken very seriously. How can a Muslim really respect the sanctity of the Mosques of Allah by attributing things which Allah clearly hates with these places of exclusive-worship to Him? You cannot serve Allah, as your god, and your desires, at the same time, you have to pick who/what you’re going to devote yourself to. A Muslim cannot, in Islamic-Conscience, justify their desires or whims, which directly contradict what Allah has prohibited, it just doesn’t work that way. You can’t mix something pure with something impure & expect to yield a pure-result: best-case scenario, they, the pure & impure cancel one another out, while the worse-case scenario, the impure completely dominates the pure…either way, you’re not winning. Furthermore, Allah clearly mentions how He had destroyed & erased the entire existence of the first people in Human-History whom were Homosexuals(Qasa-ul-Anbiya’/Stories of the Prophets, by Abul-Fida’ Isma`il ibn-Kathir ad-Dimashqi); so, what makes you think that this “Homo-Mosque” idea is acceptable at all to Allah, when He had specifically chose to destroy a people for being Homosexual?

Basically, the Muslims have become the religious-versions of whores of a male-prison, ready willing & able to drop-the-soap, in the shower-room, in front of anyone/everyone, on purpose. Now, if you drop the soap in the shower-room of a prison, what do you think/expect to happen? You figure it out!!! It’s very sad, how Muslims feel that they have to compromise everything, that is Islamically mandatory/prohibitory, just to fit into the circles of the in-crowds of their peers or societies. And, ironically (as you’d think that the Muslims would’ve learned this by now), nobody respects a sell-out, even the person/persons, society/societies whom you’re selling-out to.

And, now, ironically, sadly, shamefully, in the the present-day, we as Muslims, think that it’s “progressive”, or “politically-correct”, or “cute” to have a “Gay/Gay-Friendly Mosque”, to show people that we’re inclusive-News-Flash: THAT’S NOT HOW YOU SHOW PEOPLE INCLUSIVITY!!! We show people inclusivity by giving anyone/everyone their rights as creations of Allah & as Human beings, and equal, fair opportunities to learn about Islam, to make their own choices whether to to accept Islam or not. We don’t show inclusivity by accepting the sins of people & passing them off as something that’s “not a big-deal”, or “not important”, or “small-issues”. Anything that either Allah or His Messenger made prohibited needs to be treated as such, and it is not okay, Islamically, to pretend, or to water-down the severity & ugliness of those prohibitions, just to be seen as “modern”, or “progressive”, or “pluralistic”, or in the eyes of our current societies.

Gareth Bryant/2012

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96 responses »

  1. Gareth, your fallacies again betray you. Guilt by association does not make a point except that your thinking leaves quite a bit to be desired. As to a place of worship for Muslims, since in NYC and in other parts of the world where Muslims, Jews and in some instances Muslims and Christians share the same building and in some instances same prayer spaces (not talking about a sanctuary with all the trimmings, but a shared prayer space) are wrong? Let’s see…1. They have to be places where only Allah is worshiped; 2. They have to be places where all of the 5-prayers are made, 24/7; and 3. They have to be places where the Muslims are in complete-control over & cannot be converted into something other than Mosques…inclusive mosques meets those standards, right or do you really know??? Since you concentrated on #1, so will I. Since inclusive mosques are places “where only Allah is worshiped” and LGBT and women Muslims do worship Allah, definition met…and your issue is what now? Oh, I remember, if believers and the places where they worship do not meet your narrowly proscribed views as to what does and does not meet you and your ilks’ standards, then they are doers of wrong. Now that’s very a different storyline and we can approach it from many various schools of thought…just as I talked about some months ago when you presented your first diatribe challenging the validity of LGBT Muslims as fitnah rather than fitrah…big difference, sir. When you begin to understand Quran provides each individual an opportunity to stand in awe of Allah’s greatness…we may begin to get a much more concise picture that Allah is bigger than all the words you have to say…(paraphasing) …if the oceans were ink and trees pens…oceans refilled we couldn’t write as much as what Allah is and will be. As I stated before, you’re not Allah, and Allah is more than competent and able to handle Allah’s business…so Allah does not need you to pretend you know Allah better than Allah knows His Creation. Seems to me that guilt by association–as you so aptly described it–runs in both directions…but towards different results…worshiping Allah and adhering to human standards…wouldn’t you agree?

    • My point was made quite-clearly within my article, so there’s absolutely no need for me to repeat myself. Any response that I am to give to you would be drawn exclusively, directly from what I’ve already mentioned within this particular article. Ha Ha Ha…ironic, I was wondering when you were gonna come out of hiding. Apparently, this was the best way to get a response out of you. And, I wasn’t even expecting that you would respond. But, obviously, since what I’ve written is against your agenda, then, of course, you would respond.

      • Gareth, salaam First, I always find it so unique that some Muslims are determiners of who is Muslim and who is not…I note you did not even say “salaam.” But on to other matters of more import. Responding to your comment that you are luring me out of hiding…don’t may me laugh, grasshopper…Who is hiding? I maintain my daily routine, lead prayers on Friday night, attend various events in both religious and non-religious organizations and even do my own grocery shopping, so who is in hiding may I ask? If you mean my spending a lot of my time responding to your diatribes, you’re absolutely correct, I ignore them for the most part unless you’re again on your high horse pretending you a determiner of Allah’s judgment, then I have to speak to make sure others are not so easily misled. Have great Holiday well wishes and a prosperous New Year.

      • Firstly, I’ve never pronounced Takfir/Blasphemy against any Muslim, not even against you. Like I had already told you: I don’t take the position that you’re a Kafir/Disbeliever, I do, however, take the position that you are a Fasiq/Sinner, Mujahir/Shameless, Dhal/Misguided, etc., as a direct-result of your arrogance, allowing your ego & desires to justify an action, that has been clearly been Islamically prohibited, both within the Qur’an as well as the Sunnah/Prophetic-Tradition.

        Secondly, whomever gave you your religious-accreditation, as an “Imam”, needs to be boycotted, so as to never give anyone, like you, any type of religious-accreditation, ever again. You have no entitlement to be taken seriously, at all, as any legitimate religious-figure, because you shamelessly, blatantly, overtly, justify a sin, and not just justify a sin, you say that this sin is in fact a non-sin.

        And, this is extremely-dangerous, for you, as well as for anyone else, caught in your spell of misguidance, both Muslim & Non-Muslim alike, because by saying that any sin is not a sin is basically like saying that Allah is wrong, that He doesn’t know what He’s doing. In all reality, that’s what you hold in your mind & heart, that you’re so psychologically & emotionally attached to this sin, that you’re willing to accuse Allah as being wrong, by saying that you were born to commit a sin, so as to declare it, yourself, without any entitlement, a non-sin.

      • Wow Gareth that was a very harsh response. You know many Muslims are proud of the fact that there are many ways to interpret Islam, but you seem to think that the way you interpret Islam is the only way. Your way or the high way. Why don’t you just go join the Taliban?

        Abdullah makes a good point. You get this arrogance about you that allows you to think you are the possessor of god’s will and can tell everyone else what to do and this allows your ego to explode. For me personally, I’ve always thought religion was arrogance masquerading around as humility and you just proved my point.

      • Mike, thanks a lot for your commentary…it was great…and you’re absolutely correct, he proves your comments and not his own… Gareth, again salaam. As to your latest diatribe below with all the name-calling, if you have something to say, do say it with clarity of honest purpose, not supporting your emotional insecurities…learn to accept difference of opinion. When you recognize that Allah is far greater than the two-dimensional Allah you have sequestered to the book called the Quran–even the scholars of ancient times recognized that Allah is Omnipotent and multidimentional–so you may learn that the discussion of Allah’s bounty is continuing and has never ended since the time of Prophet Mohammad, nor will it stop because you stamp your feet or throw a tantrum. Toodles, dude.

  2. Hi Gareth, I don’t know where to begin in order to respond to your homophobic rant, but these are a few points:
    1) How can you compare LGBTQ people with child molesters and rapists? What is the justification for that comparison?
    2) If homosexuality is indeed a sin in Islam, is it a sin greater than any other sin? Is it a sin greater than lying or gossiping, for example?
    3) What happened to the value of loving your brothers and sisters? Or is that not a value in Islam?

    Finally, have you actually met any LGBTQ people, or LGBTQ Muslims for that matter?

    • Yes, I actually know Muslims whom are personally Homosexual. And Muslims whom are formerly Homosexual. And, in principle, I treat them in public & in private, no different than any other Muslim or any other Human being for that matter. And, at the exact same time, I’m not going to justify any sin before Allah, just because it’s the new popular whim of the day.

    • And, to answer your first-question: No, Homosexuality is not the worst sin. Rather, the worst sin, Islamically, is to associate false-qualities to Allah (i.e. saying that Allah doesn’t exists, that He’s not one, singular god, that He has parents/children, etc.).

      • So by this logic, Jews, Christians. Mormons, Hindus and perhaps Shiite Muslims are all worse than homosexuals, child molesters and rapists since they all attribute false qualities to god. Wow, why don’t we just put them all in jail?

      • Yeah, I forgot to respond to this; so, let me start now:

        The worst thing that a created-thing can do is to commit, what is called in Islamic-Terminology, Shirk (to say, believe, propagate things about their Creator & Lord, which is not true: for example, stating that there is no divine-creator, that the divine-creator has partners, co-gods, parents, children, is able to be killed, is a tyrant, etc., and/or not based upon revelation).(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.5, V.72 & Chpt.18, V.15)

        For all other sins, as insidious as they may very well be, even if one dies without seeking repentance for these sins, Allah may forgive them, based upon His personal-discretion. However, Allah will not forgive anyone who dies upon saying, believing, propagating anything about Allah, which is either not true (which is not based upon revelation). And, it’s not like Allah can’t forgive them; rather He will not forgive them-In all honesty, why should Allah, forgive someone for associating qualities with Allah, telling lies against Allah, their entire lives, without them pleading for Allah’s forgiveness, before their deaths?

        In short, no sin is worst than Shirk.

      • So you admit that Muslim rapists, thieves and murderers are above all Jews, Christians, Mormons, Hindus and perhaps Shiite Muslims who have committed no such acts. Yet another example of the irrationality of Islam.

        It’s no wonder Muslims like you do not respect freedom of speech – it’s because you have no case to make, so you much try to force the opposition to shut up.

      • Islam isn’t based upon Human-rational, it’s based upon pure-revelation from Allah. And, this is because the Human-rational is so limited & faulty that there is no way that the Human being could be able to guide themselves. This is why revelation from Allah is needed, in order that we learn the proper ways to function within the realm of the Mundane.

      • Islam is not based on any rationale, it is not rational at all, that is my point and you’ve confirmed that. And you are wrong, Islam is not based on revelation by allah, it is based on the mind ramblings of an illiterate cave dweller and pedophile named Mohammad who was known to use “revelations” to suit his “ego and desires”.

        You have already admitted that Islamic morality leads to unnecessary harm and can even increase harm, but I am somehow expected to believe that our logic is faulty. That would be like me telling you it is OK to drive with no seat belt because the car manual says we must drive that way, even though it increases the chance of death. You’re like an idiot that would follow the rules just because you blindly obey authority.

        Well keep being a close-minded fundamentalist Muslim. It actually helps move large numbers of Muslims towards moderation because they do not want to appear as ignorant as you in the realm of science and logic.

      • You are truly a pathetic individual: You’d rather reject Allah & submit to your ego/desires, than to submit to Allah, the Lord of all things & free yourself from the torment of the Fire in the Hereafter. You are in a seriously sad state & if Allah chooses to not lift the veil of misguidance off of your eyes & the eyes of persons like you, then you will be infinitely doomed. I really suggest that you take your life seriously, before your demise.

      • Blah blah blah, that’s all I hear. I do not live my life in fear of ancient desert superstition. Everything I said is absolutely accurate.

        1. You’ve admitted we cannot use logic and reason within Islam, therefore it is illogical and unreasonable. Fact no.1

        2. Mohammad was an illiterate cave-dwelling pedophile, that is a fact. Fact no 2.

        To just lower the age of consent to prevent being called a “pedophile” is a product of the ego and desires of a culture that thinks raping children is perfectly alright.

      • You are an insidious liar:

        1. I’ve never said that logic, reason/rationale is banned Islamically. What I said is that logic, reason/rationale doesn’t trump the revelation of Allah, that’s what I’ve said…lie number one.

        2. Even the enemies of Muhammad, from within the Arabian-Peninsula, even the Jews & Christians whom were opposed to his teachings, during his lifetime never accused him of committing Child-Molestation, and, furthermore, Child-Molestation is when a person has sexual-contact with another person under the age of puberty…lie number two.

        3. Muhammad was illiterate, yes. But, a cave-dweller, he was not…lie number three.

      • 1. If you cannot use logic, science and reason to determine what is best, that retards human achievement. Since Islam does this, it retards human achievement. Islam is still therefore illogical and unreasonable.

        2. In Islam a female slave can be raped by her masters whenever he wants, and no dignity is considered for her well being, especially if she is not a Muslim. So what if Muhammad was never formally accused of being a pedophile. He still raped little girls. He was accused of using “revelation” to justify his ego and desires as it suited him. If a man wants to fuck 9 year old, what better way to justify that, than to say “god told me it is ok.” A pubescent 9 year old is still a child, not old and mature enough to consent to sexual relations. To fuck/rape one is wrong because of that. I don’t care what your book of ancient desert ramblings says. It has no rational arguments backing up its sanctioning of slavery, rape and pedophilia.

        3. Muhammad meditated in caves outside Mecca while he reflected on his problems. I never said he lived in a cave, he just dwelled in them. Therefore he is a cave dweller.

      • 1. You still keep lying & saying that Islam retards Human-achievement, yet you have absolutely no proof of this. However, there are countless historical & contemporary proofs that the light of Islam has inspired Muslims to excel in the fields of history, science, medicine, mathematics, and the list goes on. In fact, the world-renowned “1,001 Inventions” exhibit, which highlights the technological achievements of Muslims, over the past 14-centuries, as well as the renovated Islamic-Exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, in New York City, thus proves how Islam helped, and even pushed people towards greater understanding of the cosmos, art, mathematics, technology, etc.

        2. Any person, regardless of whether they are free or slave, cannot be raped, without it being a sin. A slave-master would be in fact sinful, if they were to rape their slaves. Rape is a sin, being married to someone, whom is above the age of puberty, has nothing to do with rape, child-molestation, etc., they are not the same.

        3. You’ve obviously never read a dictionary: if you pick up any dictionary, the definition of dwell means to live somewhere. Muhammad did not live in caves. He did often, to escape the general corruption of the city of al-Makkah, to ponder, reflect, clear his mind, etc.

        The only thing that you’re trying to do is make excuses to not submit to the one who is totally responsible for your existence. And, Atheism, as senseless as it really is, gives you the perfect justification to worship your ego/desire, instead of the one who created both ego, desire, as well as everything else.

      • 1. I fully acknowledge achievements made by Muslims during the golden era. But Islamic thinking (much like how Christianity was centuries ago) began to resent the critical thinking that lead to scientific and philosophical progression. Greek philosophy, which Arabs had preserved, became illegal to copy; the Ash’ari school of thought which still dominates Islamic thinking today, closes off the idea that human reason, science and observation can discover scientific & moral truths, and instead believes only revelation can do so. This is clearly evident in the way you argue.

        This lead in part to the decline in Islamic science and understanding, and the West, which had less restrictions on reason and logic, passed the world in all areas of achievement. So, if you do not have a free and open system, that allows all ideas to compete in a free market, where the best wins, you will retard human achievement. And Islams does exactly that.

        2. Where in your “holy” Koran does it say a slave girl can never be raped? Koran 70:30 regards having sex with slave girls not a matter of fornication even when there is no marriage. Since the master owns the slave, he is free to force sex on her whenever he wants.

        “And those who guard their private parts, Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they are not to be blamed – But whoever seeks beyond that, then they are the transgressors”

        Even marital rape is allowed in Islam.

        3. Dwell can also be defined as “To exist in a given place or state: dwell in joy” so it can be temporary.

        You seem to think that a rejection of the supernatural and religion is only do to a person worshiping ego and desire. But that is not true. A Buddhist Monk who abstains from all materialism, eating meat and sex, and who spends his life meditating also rejects your tyrannic concept of god. How do you explain that? They are living a life of less desire than you? Could it be that people reject your religion because there is no evidence for your god other than a book that says its true? Yes.

      • 1. In regards to your inaccurate comment, about the Ash`ari school dominating “Islamic-Thinking”, let me ask you: have you ever met every Islamic-Thinker? Obviously, not. So, since you haven’t, you have absolutely no justification to say that an isolated, deviant-sect, that Muslims invented, dominates Islamic-Thinking. Moreover, what exactly do you mean by “Islamic-Thinking”?

        2. In regards to your unintelligent, ignorant, idiotic, malicious, claim that Rape/Marital-Rape is something Islamically allowed: Rape/Marital-Rape is automatically, by its very nature, classified as Fawahish/Sexual-Sins & Rajm/Sexual-Offenses. There doesn’t have to be an explicit verse from the Qur’an banning Rape/Marital-Rape, because, the sex-life/lifestyle of a Muslim is automatically, by default, an act of worship to Allah. And, because of this, all acts of worship are automatically classified as Mahrum/Prohibited, unless there exists any non-abrogated evidence, from either the Qur’an or the Sunnah/Prohetic-Tradition, warranting the lawfulness of any action. And, subsequently, since there is no such evidence, warranting Rape/Marital-Rape, then, it’s very obvious, Islamically, that Rape/Marital-Rape is something that is Islamically prohibited. And, the verse, which you have quoted (Noble Qur’an: Chpt.70, V.30), thus proves exactly what I’ve just mentioned.

        3. Buddhists worship Buddha: they pray to him, they regard him as a “divine-being”, that is worship. And, in fact, Buddhism, principally, is an off-shoot of Hinduism, because, Gautma, the founder of Buddhism, was in fact, a Hindu, himself. And, there are key religious-elements of Hinduism that have been kept by Buddhism, like: Nirvana/Enlightenment, Karma, Reincarnation, etc.

        4. The last time that I check, Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the Western-Hemisphere, in the United States, particularly/especially. In fact, CNN reported that since the year 2000, there have been an averag of 20,000 Americans becoming Muslims, per year. Also, the current sister-in-law of Tony Blair, the former Prime-Minister of the U.K., Lauren Booth, as well as Sean Stone, the son of one of the most powerful film-directors in the history of Hollywood, Oliver Stone, became Muslims, which are high-profile stories. Now, how & why do you think that people like them become Muslims?

      • 1. Well I have spoken to a lot of Muslims, and read and watched many Muslims give their points of view. I mentioned earlier that there is a diversity of thought among Muslims, but this is mainly due to the liberal influence of the West. However, traditional or orthodox Islamic thinking is like you – a very strict literal interpretation of doctrine. Wahhabi style.

        Let me see if I can make my point as easy as possible for you. If a scientist discovered something that contradicted long held assumptions founded on dogma, and evidence kept growing to support this discovery, what would a traditional orthodox Muslim (like you) do? They would deny its existence or validity because revelation must always supersede any amount of knowledge that contradicts it.

        This is what I mean when I say Islam retards human achievement. Religion forces us to constrict our critical thinking abilities, – the most important abilities that we have, in favor of unproven dogma believed on faith. This is the biggest problem, free-thinkers/atheists have when it comes to religion – it retards progress and constricts our critical thinking. Do you get it now?

        2. The verse I quoted says Muslim men can only have sex with their wives, or their female slaves. And since there is no explicit verse forbidding rape, it is allowed by default. You would think that such a major crime like rape would have many passages forbidding or regulating it, as does slavery and hygiene. I guess Mohammad cared more about washing feet than women being raped and enslaved.

        3. Some Buddhists do not worship Buddha, it depends on the sect. Some Christians worship Jesus, some Jews worship Moses, who cares? The point is, that you avoided to address, was that rejection of your god and religion is not necessarily due to worshiping “ego & desire”. It might be due to someone like me wanting to live under a system that respects reason, and logic, and scientific facts, and not unproven dogma believed on faith.

        4. Atheism/Agnosticism is growing in the West at a faster rate. Now almost 20 of Americans have no religion, more than the number black people and more than latinos. Half of Europe is non-religious, and Latin American gets less religious with every poll. Combined that with the number of atheists in China, Korea and Japan and we number nearly 1 billion and growing. The developed words is heading fast towards non-belief. Islam grows mainly because they have more kids.

        But once the wall protecting religion from criticism gets knocked down in traditional Muslim countries through Western influence, it will open a tidal wave of secular criticism that will relentlessly pound Islam into submission. I speak to many Muslims from Muslims countries and many tell me that this is bubbling right below the surface, just waiting to come out. Secular humanist ethics will win in the long run because we can make a much better case – based on reason and science – to back up our ethics, and all you have is an old book.

      • 1. My religious-positions are not Wahhabist, in any way, nor is it sectarian in any way. It is directly based upon the texts of the Qur’an & Prophetic-Tradition.

        2. You have no idea what you’re talking about. The prohibition of Sexual-Offenses, Rape included, are crystal-clear.

      • You may not call yourself a Wahhabi but you sound like you would fit right into Saudi Arabia, Yemen or Sudan. Do you even respect freedom of speech? I doubt it. Seems to me like you would like to force everyone else to live under sharia where it is strictly forbidden to say or do anything outside of Islamic orthodoxy.

      • You sound like an absolute clown, right now. What does a “Wahhabi” look like to you? Do you even know the history of this term? Do you even know that this term is universally known as a derogatory-term, used by some Muslims, against other Muslims? Of course, you don’t know & don’t care, either. You’re just like every other, typical, Atheist/Anti-Theist, Secularist, Orientalist, who just pick-up terms, and just run with them & begin to label people as such, just because they oppose whatever you seem to stand for.

        Well, guess what? You might as well have called the entire Muslim-World “Wahhabi”, because guess what? Every Muslim believes that Allah exists & that Allah is one. So, if that’s what you consider a “Wahhabi”, then the entire “Muslim-World” would fall under that particular derogatory-term. So, what do you mean by “Wahhabi”?

      • I’m going to interpret your fake outrage as an excuse to not answer my question about whether you respect freedom of speech/expression. My guess is no.

      • Do yourself a big-favor, and stop assuming that I don’t respect free-speech, or any other universal, rightful, entitlement, endowed by Allah, to His creation. I do, as a Muslim, respect & believe in Free-Speech. But, also, at the same time, free-speech has necessary-limitations. For example, if someone says something purposely-false about you, in a Court-of-Law (like accusing you of rape, child-molestation, for example), what is that called…it’s called Defamation-of-Character, which is actually a criminal-offence; now, would you dare say that this person is practicing their right to “free-speech”, if they’re purposely slandering you? Of course, you wouldn’t. Likewise, I believe, as a Muslim, that “free-speech” has limitations. Oh…and, by the way…perhaps you’ve never heard of the saying, “When you assume, you make an ass out of yourself.”. Well, you’ve been making an ass out of yourself, this entire thread. Firstly, by making idiotic comments, starting with your blatant rejection of Allah, the Divine-Creator for the Universe. Secondly, by trying to manipulate Islamic-Texts, to slander Islam, without having any true knowledge/understanding of any of the texts that you’ve referred to or quoted. Thirdly, by just using run-of-the mill terms to describe specific groups of Muslims, to describe me, just because I’m able to truthfully & intelligently expose your fallacies & biases. Fourthly, by purposely bringing up things on this thread which have absolutely nothing to do with the article, itself, nor even the subject within this article.

      • Ok you respect free speech, mad props to you. We can at least agree on that.

        “When you assume, you make an ass out of yourself.”

        Well you assumed I was black right? Now who’s an ass?

        Now yes we did get off topic, you’re right, but some of that was just because I was messing with you. But seriously, if you want a serious conversation about morality within an islamic context, it is relevant and necessary to bring up slavery and pedophilia, which we all agree Islam condones.

        So in Islam eating pork is harem!! But raping a nine year old girl, who’s father has just offered you in marriage – perfectly OK!!!! Also, every white slave master who owned black children born into slavery was perfect OK, as long as they conformed to the Koran’s regulations on slavery.

        Only through a masochistic religion like Islam will you hear a black man in america today justify the slavery in the south. Damn.

        But let’s just end this because talking with hardcore religious people like yourself has made me realize that you cannot have a rational, scientific debate with someone who puts scripture over reason, evidence and scientific knowledge.

      • 1. You keep saying that Islam condones Child-Molestation…not true, as usual.

        2. You said that I support slavery in the South…not true.

        3. You’re right…this convo-thread has definitely run it’s course: I don’t have the ability to change the general condition of your heart, nor change how you choose to doubt/reject the existence of a divine-creator. So, yeah…this discourse, between you & I, has officially starting to become a waste of time.

  3. Reblogged this on Jahnabi Barooah and commented:
    Wow. I don’t know where you to begin. I thought some fundamentalist Christians had the worst homophobic rants, but this guy is even worse. Here are a few of my top objections to this essay:
    1) The comparison of LGBTQ people to child molesters and rapists make no sense. Anyone who casually makes such a comparison clearly knows close to nothing about LGBTQ people. All it does is reflect a hateful, antiquated mind.
    2. It misinterprets the sin of gluttony in Sodom and Gomorrah with homosexuality.
    3. It says nothing except homosexual people must be rejected. Even many prominent evangelical Christians who believe that homosexual behavior is a sin, will say that it is important to love and respect LGBTQ people even if one believes that homosexual behavior is a sin.

    • Gareth is just a very conservative Muslim and according to a traditional Islamic world view, he is pretty much in conjunction with Islamic views on sexuality. It is not Gareth that you should have the problem with, it is Islam. Islamic doctrine forces Gareth to think as he does, which makes me scared.

      • You shouldn’t be scared that I’m a Muslim, whom is focused upon being obedient to Allah, via His revelation, you should be afraid of meeting Allah, on the Day of Standing, when He will ask you why did you mock the reality of His existence, oneness, mercy, wrath, etc. Don’t be afraid of me, because fearing me doesn’t benefit me at all; fear is not for me, fear is only for Allah, because I don’t don’t have the ability to place you into Hell infinitely, He does.

      • I have no problems with Muslims per se, I’ve had many Muslim friends throughout the years. The only problem I have is when Muslims actively try to get their religious traditions imposed on other people. If Muslims keep their traditions/observances to themselves, I have no problem with them.

        Allah is another story, if I worship him out of fear, than Islam is no better than a kind of fire insurance for the sole, and that degrades all religion, but especially Islam. If allah existed, why would he respect a man who selfishly pretends to be religious, only to save his own ass? I’d simply be using allah for my own selfish interests, just like pretending to like a woman only to get her into bed. Why should this be considered noble?

      • Well, regarding to fearing Allah, that’s only referring to fearing His punishment for disobeying Him & that’s just one aspect; the other is respect, meaning, to respect Allah’s existence, oneness, and authority over the entire Universe, thus giving Him all entitlements, to all things. Also, it’s never selfish to want infinite-salvation, that’s just like saying it’s selfish to be healthy, helpful, a law-abiding citizen, educated, employed, successful in life, etc. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with these things. In fact, that’s why Allah has given us incentives to worship Him, because He knows the nature of the Human being (naturally, because He created us), that we never wanna do something-for-nothing. Everything that we do, regardless of how genuine it really is, there’s a level of silver-lining selfishness within that action, so that we can somehow benefit from that action. Worshipping Allah is no different: In all honesty, without the warning of the Fire & the glad-tidings of the Paradise, it would be pointless for the Human being to invest all of his time to worship someone, something, etc., to get nothing out of it, after death, this is exactly how the Human being thinks & Allah, obviously, knows this.

      • Fair enough, you can continue believing what you want about god. I just think your world-view as it relates to god, is totally unjustified, and illogical. What I meant was if I believe and worship solely out of fear, that would be dishonest. It’s like if you were kidnapped and tortured and told that if you renounce Islam the torture would stop. At your breaking point, you might renounce Islam, but you would only do it to stop the torture, not because it is sincere. Why would god respect someone she knows is only worshiping her out of fear over someone who lives their lives honestly?

        In my case I’m not offered any real empirical proof god does exist, and then I’m asked to take a leap of faith on one particular deeply-flawed religion, to avoid getting tortured. Besides why would I want to worship such a being that is perfectly fine with having me (and billions of other people) tortured for all eternity? That is like liking your torturer. Islam operates on a system of fear as its structural support, it is the backbone supporting it and this point is made, as you know throughout the Koran.

      • Firstly, Allah is neither male nor female, so why are you purposely referring to Allah as “she”. Now, you’re trying to be disrespectful, so watch it!!! Also, everything which exists within the seen & unseen Universe are proofs that Allah exists: nothing in the Universe exists by itself, without any origin; and, if something does, in fact, have an origin, then, likewise, they would have to have an originator, whom is external of the Universe & eternal, unlike everything else, within either the seen/unseen Universe, being finite, or, inifinite.

        Secondly, mercy is mentioned more often in the Qur’an, itself, than fear, which shows that you know absolutely nothing about the Qur’an. Furthermore, I had clearly mentioned that the basis of worshipping Allah is both respect & fear, which you purposely chose to ignore the fact that I had also mentioned respect along side of fear, with fear, and even before fear.

        Thirdly, referring to temporarily-denying one’s belief in Allah, to save one’s life is Islamically allowed, only if one’s life is in danger. But, also, a Muslim has the option to also resist the pressure to temporarily-deny one’s belief i Allah, even if it costs one their life.

      • Really, there is more mercy than fear in the Koran? Well according to http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/ the word “mercy” appears 79 times. And according to http://www.searchtruth.com, the word “fear” appears 296 times in 269 verses. So fear is a more recurring theme than mercy.

        So what I referred to allah as a “she”. Are you telling me women are inferior? You wouldn’t raise an issue if I used the word “he”.

        Just because you can say allah is “external of the Universe” does not mean that these properties are logically possible. I can define myself as “perfect” but saying words does not transfer into reality. The Islamic concept of god is logically contradictory.

      • The word Taqwa in the Qur’an, is often mistranslated as just “Fear”. Taqwa, more accurately, actually is a combination of both “Respect” as well as “Fear”; Taqwa actually, in the Arabic-Language, originally comes from the word Taqa, which means to cover, to shield, to protect, to preserve, etc. The word in the Qur’an which exclusively means “Fear” is Khawf, meaning to fear, to awe, etc.

      • Well, according to the Arabic-Language, any noun, which does not have a specific-gender, is automatically classified as masculine. This is not exclusive to the Arabic-Language, many, if not most languages, possess this same linguistic-dynamic. So, since Allah is, in fact, eternal, and He is not like his creation (He is not male, female, infinite, finite, etc,), then, also, any name which describes Him also have to be masculine, by definition.

      • It has nothing to do with “according to me”, it’s just that since I’ve been a Muslim for so long, and have extensively studied various Islamic disciplines, including the Arabic-Language, I can tell when something is being purposely mistranslated, ignorantly mistranslated, translated in a mediocre way, etc.

  4. This quote from one of America’s most popular Christian pastors may help:
    “Here’s what we know about life. I have all kinds of natural feelings in my life and it doesn’t necessarily mean that I should act on every feeling. Sometimes I get angry and I feel like punching a guy in the nose. It doesn’t mean I act on it. Sometimes I feel attracted to women who are not my wife. I don’t act on it. Just because I have a feeling doesn’t make it right. Not everything natural is good for me. Arsenic is natural,” – Pastor Rick Warren, on same-sex attraction.

  5. i dont think its right to compare rape and molesting children with those who are gay – such comments will distract from the issue at hand. I feel the key issue here is that the Muslim community has been largely unable to support Muslims who consider themselves gay and make them feel alienated and unwanted. Despite being able to tolerate and welcome others in their mosques that commit actions which are considered sinful by the sacred law such as those that have sex before marriage etc however with gays there exists an additional layer of hatred which drives them and their supports to the other extreme.

    • While I do agree, with you, that the Muslim-Community has, in fact, done a generally poor-job, at reaching-out to both the Muslim & Non-Muslim Homosexual demographic. But, again, as I’ve stated in my article, naming a sacred place after a sin, any sin, is not at all Islamically acceptable, period.

      And, the reason why I made the comparison between Homosexuals & Rapists/Child-Molesters is because, inherently, they’re all the same: they’re sinners. This is something very important, that we all have to remember: Homosexuality is in fact a sin, like any & all other sins, intrinsically, realistically, no created-thing has the entitlement to determine which sins are worse than others, which sins are “better”, “worse”, etc., only Allah has the right to decide this.

      • Islam is probably the last bastion of absolute intolerance towards homosexuals. It is because Islam has not gone through an enlightenment period. It probably will eventually as Western influence and modernity forces it to. Tariq Ramadan has voiced a slightly more modern view a Muslim could have towards homosexuality that I personally think is a step in the right direction, but not quite there yet. He says although you might not personally agree with the homosexual lifestyle, it can be acknowledged that people have the right to freedom, and privacy, and to live their lives differently than what Islam says is true. But if Muslims think that homosexuality is a choice, and think they can cure it somehow with Islamic philosophy, their efforts will be a waste of time and hopelessly futile and instead should best be used towards alleviating the poverty and suffering, that of course you believe allah willed for, created and designed.

      • Firstly, Homosexuality is, just like any other sin that people choose to do, a choice. I know people personally, whom have become Muslims, and they were Homosexuals, before they became Muslims. And, they have admitted, publicly, that Homosexuality is a choice & sin.

      • What kind of evidence is that for anything? Anecdotal evidence is not science, it is about as scientific as revelation. I can just as easily say I know someone who heard the voice of an angel named Maroni telling him that Mormonism is the one true faith. Would that make Mormonism true? Your friend could be bisexual, in which case they can be both gay ad straight at the same time, or they could’ve been faking their homosexuality, or are faking their heterosexuality now. They’d have to be hooked up to a machine that measures whether they get aroused or not when exposed to homosexual imagery. Saying they are “straight” means nothing, anyone can lie about anything. Religious people like you base far too many “facts” on what a few people say.

  6. You claim that Homosexuality is normal & natural. Now, if this were true, then: one, how do you explain the fact that there is no such thing as a “Gay-Gene”; two, how do you explain a straight man, in prison, who gets raped, and because of whatever reason (most probably pressure from fellow-inmates or shame), decides to be Homosexual. Are you saying that all of these men, whom have succumb to rape were all Homosexual from the very start, they just needed to get raped, in order to activate their Homosexual nature that was hiding inside of them, dormantly?

    Or, better yet, how about a young person, regardless of being male or female, whom was sexually-molested as a child; are you saying that they were really Homosexual, all along, but just needed to be sexually-molested, in order to activate their Homosexuality?

    To really believe this would be utterly retarded.

    • Gareth, salaam. Once again, brother, you are mixing apples, oranges and sour grapes, particularly with your nonsensical statement…”…just needed to be sexually-molested (or raped), in order to activate their homosexuality?” So taking your comments in order, there is no need for a “gay-gene” as you so profess, since heterosexuals bring gay children into the world (think about fitrah, brother, fitrah not fitnah…and continuing about the unseen (24:22, as tongues and colors have an outer meaning and an internal meaning..and when you figure out the internal meaning we can discuss them)..so your confusion of origins does that to people sometimes– they just can’t think outside the “box” (“vagina” — pun intended). Additionally, stating that homosexuality is the root cause of pedophilia or that homosexuals rape men, let me suggest you take some courses on human sexuality and psychology, it will help you refocus on what is real and not what is imagined . Additionally, rape is about power, brother, and there are book shelves replete that substantiates and proves that point…and as the fellow indicated in his earlier comment, just because someone says such thing is true does not mean it is true and the world demands a higher standard than just plain blind adherence to what you believe to be true…ever heard that people you believe in do lie??? Also, as it relates to use the term “she” is a way of countering the patriarchy so prevalent in texts when Allah is not of any sex, but it so often referred to as “He” because men are doing the writing of said texts. Does it make it unfathomable that a female to write Allah as “she” for Allah manifests as “she” to her? Anyway, brother, again you continue down that prime rose path, but in truth 2:256 speaks more clearly–there is no compulsion/coercion in faith…and that’s the gist of the whole issue. Enjoy the hoildays.

    • To believe you would be utterly retarded. Most homosexuals were neither raped, nor molested, so this victimization does not activate homosexuality. Homosexuality is not a button that can get turned on like a light switch.

      How do you explain unabused young children, growing up in conservative religious heterosexual families and environments, who exhibit behavior like the opposite gender, and soon thereafter feel same sex attractions?

      How do you explain hermaphrodites? It seems obvious that our gender and sexuality is due to a complex variety of hereditary and hormonal factors, that can result in the existence of all kinds of sexualities. But of course your close minded ignorant religious world view will never allow you to see that because anything that contradicts your Koran you think must be a lie.

      • Being a Hermaphrodite has absolutely nothing to do with a person’s inherent sexuality. Sexuality is not genetic, we don’t inherit our senses of sexual-self from a gene-pool, there’s no such thing as a sexuality-gene; sexuality is something that is largely influenced by external-environment; and, generally, people are in fact products of their environments. No person just wakes up one day, and say, “You no what, I wanna be a Homosexual, one day.”, real-life don’t work that way. And, if what you’ve mentioned about how people’s sexuality are affected by “chemical-imbalances” or “hormonal-factors”, then, why is it that a man could live out his entire life as a Heterosexual, then, get locked-up, raped, eventually conforming to a Homosexual-lifestyle, as a result of being pressured to do so? Are you saying that this person was indeed suffering from a “chemical-imbalance”, all along, or was hiding his sexuality from his very self? Explain that!!!

      • And, also, referring to your claim of “existence of all kinds of sexualities”, the only Islamically valid sexuality is Heterosexuality, really simple. This is the only Islamically permitted sexual-lifestyle, and anything/everything else, contrary to Heterosexuality is a sin, just like any other sin, that has been established as such, in both the Qur’an & Prophetic-Tradition.

      • I don’t know of any men who became gay after years in prison. If that would be true, why isn’t every guy who spends years in prison gay? According to your theory that would happen. Instead, men who get out of prison, go crazy over women and getting vagina is often the first thing on their menu. So your false belief is not true.

        If a hermaphrodite can exist, and they do, this explains that nature can sometimes make a host of different models besides the standard hetero male/female combination. People can be born feeling like they are the opposite gender, while not having two sets of genitals. These people might have a sex change or not, they might be gay or not, but they don’t choose their sexual identity, it is in their nature.

        If you still maintain sexuality is “influenced by external-environment” you still haven’t explained the 7 scientific points I gave you indicating physiological factors in sexual identity and you have not explained why almost all homosexual people come from heterosexual families often in conservative environments where no one influenced them to be gay at an early age, and they exhibit their sexual behavior at a very young early age (i.e. acting like the opposite gender).

        *****
        So Islam forbids consenting adult homosexuality, but it allows slavery, and forcing underage girls into marriages with 30,40 or 50 year old men. Wow some moral standard that is. Please justify this Mr. Islamic scholar. I love a good challenge.

      • 1. To answer your question about slavery, yes, Islam allows slavery, but, at the same time, Islam does not condone taking someone whom is born as a free person & placing them into a state of slavery, unless they are military-captives of war.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.8, Surah al-Anfal/Spoils of War/Conquest)

        2. Regarding the marriages of women, at teenage-years, yes, Islam allows anyone, after they’ve reached the age of puberty, to marry. This is because manhood & womanhood, Islamically, is determined at the age of puberty, which could be at any age for a Human being, from 8-16 years of age.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.4, V.6 & Chpt.24, V.33)

      • Gareth you are telling lies. Islam allows men to marry girls who have not reached puberty yet.

        Behold [Qur’an 65:4]

        “And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women – if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated”.

        From WikiIslam:
        Since this is not negated later, we can take from this verse that it is permissible to have sexual intercourse with a prepubescent girl. The Qur’an is not like the books of jurisprudence which mention what the implications of things are, even if they are prohibited.

        This verse is talking about the proper ways Muslims can divorce their wives, whether they have had their periods or not. C’mon Gareth you know you can’t get away with lies in the information age.

        Now how do you justify prepubescent girls who are married? How could they consent to such an act at an early age? And if this is somehow OK in your world view, how is this *more* moral than slavery and consenting homosexual adults? I seriously cannot understand the Islamic view on morality. A Saudi Arabian friend of mine who is an ex-Muslim told me that Islamic “morality” is insanity and from an insane mind (Mohammad) and I totally agree. Please prove me wrong.

      • The easiest way to prove you wrong is the following:

        One, you don’t have any knowledge of classic Islamic-texts, according to authentic commentaries.

        Two, you don’t have any knowledge of these things, according to the Arabic-Language.

        Fortunately, I do. This verse, regarding how a man can divorce a woman, Islamically, is exclusively referring to women whom have experienced menopause, as well as women whom are currently pregnant. As for women whom have reached menopause, or even presumed as reaching menopause, this particular verse is stating that regardless to whether they’ve truly reached the biological-state of menopause, they (man and wife) are to stay in a period of `Iddah/Separation, for three menstrual-cycles (basically, 3-months), in oreder to do two things: one, to reconcile any differences & try to salvage the marriage; two, to find out whether the wife in-question is pregnant, because, Islamically, you cannot divorce a woman while they are pregnant, unless they have a miscarriage, or have already given birth. And, this is clearly indicated in the later section of the verse, where it is clearly stated that to divorce a pregnant-woman, one has to wait until that woman gives birth to the child (i.e. the regular `Iddah, instead of only being 3-months, is now extend to however long the woman ramains pregnant, unless she has a miscarriage or gives birth).

        Also, this verse is not at all referring to women whom are prepubescent, it’s referring to women whom are not currently menstruating. I don’t know how the Hell you got that from this verse; there’s absolutely nothing which indicates that, neither from the actual text, nor from any of the authentic commentaries. And, for the record, WikiIslam is not at all any sort of religious-authority, over any religion, so, to quote this site, which randomly picks translations of Islamic-texts, without knowing any nuances of texts, nor of any authentic commentaries, nor of the linguistic-dynamics of the Arabic-Language, is very unfairly biased, it it’s purposely done on your part, to push your agenda against Islam.

        If you wanna learn about any religion, out of Universal-Respect, learn it from thos whom are actually ascribers to that particular religion. And, ex-members of that particular religion don’t count as religious-authorities either, by virtue of the fact that they will never be objective enough to comment on the respective religion that they’ve abandoned.

        Moreover, you’ve mentioned how is prepubescent-girls allowed to get married, then, it’s very simple:

        The consummation of the marriage is not allowed to take place, until/unless the prepubescent person in-question reaches puberty. The proof of this is in the Prophetic-Tradition of Muhammad (Peace be upon him), when he married our mother,`A’ishah (May Allah be pleased with her), at the age of 6, and the marriage was not consummated until she had reached 9, because it was confirmed that she had reached puberty at age 9.(al-Bukhari) Then, we have the fact that Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was, in deed, a Prophet. Now, as a Prophet, he along with any & all Prophets before him (Peace be upon them all-together), had been given a special type of protection, directly from Allah, from committing any type of sexual-offenses, because if any Prophet would’ve committed any sexual-offenses, even before they became Prophets, their missions would’ve been compromised. No one would take them seriously, as Prophets, had they committed any sexual-offenses during their lifetimes, even prior to Prophethood.

        Furthermore, all of the religious-actions of Muhammad (Peace be upon him), along with the religious-actions of all the Prophets (Peace be upon them all-together), were exclusive, direct, commands from Allah, they had no choice. So, when it comes to marriage, Muhammad didn’t have a choice as to whom he was to either marry or divorce, as Allah clearly states, in His book.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.53, V.2-4 & Chpt.33, V.37) By the way, Muhammad was not the first and/or only Prophet whom had been slandered, accused of a sexual-offense: There was Lot (Peace be upon him), accused of committing incest with one of his daughters(Genesis), as well as David (Peace be upon him), accused of sending a man to the battlefield, to die, so he could have the man’s wife, and he’s even accused of getting this woman pregnant, before he married her, after her previous husband had died.(Samuel 1 & 2)

      • Well you admit that prepubescent girls can be married to men, which is pretty much against their will since they are too young to consent. When is the freedom and dignity of the underage girl ever considered? It is my belief that Islam is a religion where there are many “morals” that lead to unnecessary harm to those affected by them.

        If you believe that morality can be commanded solely by god, regardless of whether that commandment’s actions will unnecessarily hurt people affected by it, then you have no moral standards. You are only blindly following the words of a man who lived 1400 years ago. You are not even willing to consider if there are better alternatives that produce less harm to those involved. Example: slavery.

        You keep coming to the point where you have to say “the Koran says so” and then you seem to stop thinking about it. I’m asking you to use your own words to justify this morality of allowing prepubescent girls to marry, and tell me why this is better for overall human well being when compared to adult consenting homosexuals. I just do not understand how one can be rationalized to be worse than the other.

        Furthermore, since there isn’t a single line in the Koran forbidding the marriage of prepubescent girls, it is allowed. Mohammad could’ve adopted Aisha, instead he committed what today would be pedophilia.

      • 1. Yes, that’s exactly the point: Allah, alone has the right to determine what is moral & what is immoral, because He is the Creator & Lord of everything. And, by virtue of this, He & He alone knows what best for us, when we don’t even know what is best for ourselves.

        2. The marital-consummation between `A’ishah (May Allah be pleased with her) & Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was not Child-Molestation, because the Islamic definition of Child-Molestation means to have sexual-contact with someone whom has not reached Puberty. As long as a person has actually reached Puberty, Islamically, it cannot be considered Child-Molestation.

        3. Child-Molestation is relative to societal-norms, and political-agendas. Even in the United States, previous to the 20th century, the average female was married before she reached 18; yet know, marrying someone under the age of 18 is considered “Pedophilia”, or “Stachatory-Rape”. You get my point? This modern concept of “Pedophilia” is very biased, socio-politically.

        4. Now, referring to the actual marriage of `Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) to Muhammad (Peace be upon him), this was a known practice, not only in Arab-culture, but in other cultures, around the world, during this particular time. And, even the Pagan-Arabs, who hated Muhammad, and tried innumerable times to thwart the progress of his prophetic-mission, had never accused him of committing any such sexual-offenses, because during the lifetime of Muhammad, these types of sexual-offenses were in fact committed, having sexual-contact with persons under the age of puberty; but, Muhammad, himself, was never personally accused of this, because he never did it, even before Prophethood. As a matter of fact, the first woman that he was ever married to was 25 years older than he was, 15 years before he became a Prophet, and they were married for a total number of 25 years, before he had even married anyone else.(al-Bukhari, ar-Rahiq-ul-Makhtum/The Sealed-Nectar, Safiyy-ur-Rahman Mubarakpuri)

      • Then you would have to believe that the abolishment of slavery that every country has adopted, is wrong, because it oversteps allah’s morals for us. Instead, all nations should have just regulated their practices of slavery in order to conform it to Islam. Do you honestly think we should reverse our laws on slavery to conform to Islam?

        Since you think mankind cannot even think for himself and even attempt such a thing as a moral philosophy, most of our laws according to you are wrong. The failure of Islam in the long run will be probably on this issue: Islam forces its believers to believe morals that are only justified “because the Koran says so.” Meaning the Muslim has no other justification, and the more educated and critically thinking the world becomes, the less and less they will adopt the Islamic way of thinking.

        Which brings me to the pedophilia issue. You are criticizing the West for raising the age in which a person can legally marry, because we have determined that being 6 or 9 years old is too young. If you are going to make the case to justify any moral, do you honestly think that saying “because the Koran says so” is a valid conclusion and equal or better to using reason?

      • Referring to the abolition of slavery, this is actually a noteworthy action, Islamically, even to the extent that if slavery is abolished in a place it is Islamically prohibited to re-establish slavery ever again thereafter.

        Referring to your claim that I think that Mankind cannot think is simply foolish, because, in the Qur’an, itself, there are countless references to both intellect/intelligence & learning/knowledge. So, you’re dead-wrong on that one.

        Refering to the raising of the age of marriage, this is one of many proofs of how Allah has supreme entitlement to tell us how to function in the Mundane, and that we, by ourselves, don’t know what we’re doing, when it comes to governing ourselves, based upon Human-Logic, outside of the regulation of divine-revelation.

        And, I say this, because, whenever the mood for Humans to just change laws, to either suit their egos, desires, etc., or to suit socio-political agendas, they will just change whatever they want, just to suit the time, not because it’s even better for Mankind, but, for the soothing of ego & desire.

    • I cannot understand your belief in thinking that the arranged marriage of prepubescent girls, and slavery are morally good, when compared to consenting adult homosexuality. Please outline a rational argument for this that does not appeal to scripture. If you cannot make this case, then you admittedly only believe so because it is in the Koran.

      Allah could’ve said consenting homosexuality is right and you would think so to. How ignorant is it to accept something is right or wrong without thinking critically about it. The problem here you must admit, is that Islam stops critical thinking and the logical conclusions it can lead to. That is no religion I want to be a part of, never ever ever, and it is a good thing that anti-critical thinking people like you seem to be declining in numbers.

      If we can’t think critically, which is one of our most important gifts as human beings, than Islam hinders the full potential of the human mind.

      • The problem with you, and all people like you, is that you’re so incredibly arrogant, that you would rather follow your whimsical ego/desires, rather than to admit & submit to the fact that there is someone whom exists, whom is greater than you are. The only reason that you’re even an atheist has nothing to do with you not believing in a divine-creator, but the fact that you don’t want to have anyone dictate to you how to function within the Mundane. Your ego/desires are your gods, and you’d rather worship those things, as opposed to the one who created them for you.

        In fact, there’s really no such thing as a true atheist, because at the end of the day, everyone worships someone or something, whether they worship Allah, the true, divine, creator of the Universe, a false-god, themselves, via their own egos/desires, etc. It’s just like Allah says that a person takes their desires as their gods, and, you, as well as people like you (Daayiee Abdullah included) fit this description, that Allah gives, in the Qur’an itself, perfectly.

      • You are the most arrogant Muslim I’ve encountered in quite a while. You don’t know me, and you have no justification saying I’m a fake atheist.

        What I did notice is that you did not even attempt to justify why slavery and forced prepubescent marriage is good, while consenting homosexuality is wrong. You have no argument, other than to say that a book containing the ideas of an epileptic and illiterate cave dweller says so. Wow. What a great method of critical thinking for mankind.

        If secular humanists like myself want to *raise* the age of consent, and agree with the abolishment slavery (unlike you), how could we be acting in our selfish ego and desires? If we were, we would drop the age of consent to 0 so that we could have sex with children. You make no sense even on your own ignorance. It is your religion that forbids raising age of consent – that feeds the ego of men who like to rape children within the confines of “marriage”. Furthermore why would we forbid polygamy? According to you, all our laws should cut restrictions, not impose them.

        The idea that we cannot use our intellect – our greatest ability – to solve problems and come up with solutions based on reason and evidence, means as I’ve said before and as you’ve confirmed, that Islam is a religion that retards humanity.

        You are proud of not using your mind to think about anything. This is because you know in your heart that Islam’s rules lead to unnecessary harm, and are not at all based on critical thinking, but one man’s ramblings. The more educated people are, the less likely they will subscribe to your way of thinking, because it is obvious from your ramblings that you are not even trying to have a serious, rational and scientific discussion on these issues.

      • 1. Explain how am I arrogant…Did I push a button, when I mentioned that everyone worships someone and/or something? Did that cause a dent to your ego or something? You’re getting real antsy about that, I wonder why. It’s simple…your soul knows that I’m telling the truth, but, you’ve allowed your ego & desire to control you, as opposed to the other way around.

        2. Allah, as I’ve continually mentioned, makes the rules, so that’s that. Whatever He wants us to do and/or not to do is just what it is. And, it is He alone, who has the divine-option to tell us what to do/how to do, as well as what not to do/how not to do, period.

        3. Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was not an Epileptic. He was, however, illiterate, which is actually one of the standard proofs that the Qur’an is purely revelation from Allah, and not an invention of any created-thing, especially not from an illiterate man from the desert of the Arabian-Peninsula, whom received no formal-education.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.7, V.757 & 158)

        4. Allah commands, and encourages us to use our minds, to observe the wonders of the Universe, and all creation which is within our limited-scopes.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.3, V.190; Chpt.86, V.5-7; Chpt.88, V.17-20) So, your insidious claims that Islam retards Humanity are just venomous lies.

      • My ego dented? Please. You haven’t even tried to make a case based on reason and science why you think you are right about homosexuality being worse than slavery and the forced marriage/rape of underage girls to older men as your religion condones.

        The only thing you have said is that your religious text says so – “so that’s that”. Using the Koran to justify the Koran is as stupid as using the book of Mormon to justify the book of Mormon. You have to use evidence from outside this limited scope. If you can’t, it demonstrates the weakness of your position, but you already know that.

        So what has our dialogue established:

        1. Islamic “morality” does not seek to prevent unnecessary harm to humans as best it can.

        2. Many Islamic morals cannot be adequately justified using science, logic and reason.

        3. Islam considers the use of critical thinking when it is used to find better, and less harmful moral alternatives to be full of “ego & desire” and therefore “harem”.

        4. Therefore, our critical thinking faculties, which is what separates us from all other animals, is at least in part, retarded by Islamic dogma.

        5. It is pointless to continue having a debate with someone who is so blinded by dogma, that he refuses to acknowledge that his way of thinking (1) leads to unnecessary harm, and (2) is not rationally justified and therefore is unqualified within the realm of logic and reason.

        All these reasons stacked up are the reasons why the future of Islam is not like you, rather it is the more liberal and moderate Muslim who will represent the face of Islam. We all hope your kind disappears as soon as possible – and the trend appears that way. Soon your kind will be like the republican party – on the verge of extinction.

      • 1. Islamically-Morality does exactly that: its intrinsic goal is to reduce harm & promote benefit. I don’t where you could possibly get the opposite of that from. In fact, many of the expansive Maxims of Islamic-Law are the following: Preservation of Islam, Preservation of Life, Preservation of Integrity, Preservation of Intellect/Knowledge, Preservation of Property, Preservation of Lineage/Family-Ties, etc. & there are many more than this.

        2. Islamic-Morality doesn’t have to submit to Science, Human-Logic/Rational, etc., because, Islamic-Morality is based upon revelation from Allah, and, Allah is not regulated by anything. Rather on the contrary, He regulates all things & at times.

        3. You can use critical-thinking all you want. But, when it comes to morality, this is something for Allah to decide, what is moral & what is not moral. And, only Allah has the entitlement to decide what is moral and/or what is immoral.

        4. The Human-Rational is not crippled by obeying Allah, as someone like you, would try to elude to. On the contrary, Islam actually strengthens a person’s rational, by humbling it, by regulating it & teaching it that it is not above the majesty of Allah. That’s actually the whole point behind the meaning of Islam: submission of one’s ego, rational/logic, desire, for the greater good, and the ultimate “greater-good” is to obey Allah in all things, according to the pure sincere abilities of an individual.

        5. I am the future of Islam & the future of Islam is right now…I am not an anomaly, and I’m grateful that I’m not. Those whom are upon truth the truth, of Islam, will always be successful, both in the Mundane as well as in the Hereafter, even if they are oppressed, even if they are mocked & ridiculed, why? Because, Allah has promised that He is with those whom are steadfast upon His guidance, grateful for His bounties, observant of His commandments, careful not to delve into His prohibitions.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.23, V.1-11)

      • Allah is regulated by logic. He cannot do what is logically impossible. If you disagree, tell me, can allah create a rock that is too heavy for him to lift?

      • 1. Allah is not a figment of someone’s imagination, He is Al-Haqq/The Ultimate-Reality.

        2. This is such a lame question: There is no such thing as a rock, or anything that Allah cannot lift. Allah has complete, total, eternal, unlimited strength, over all things.

        3. To ask this question thus proves that you’ve run out of gas pathetically quickly, in fact, you’ve been runnin’ on empty, for the entire duration of this convo-thread.

      • 1. Words do not make something true. I can define myself as “perfect”, but that doesn’t translate to reality. Saying allah is all powerful, all knowing, wise, infinite, awesome, blah blah blah, doesn’t make it real, it’s just wordplay.

        2. You just admitted that allah cannot create a rock to heavy for him to lift. So that is something he cannot logically do. All things must submit to logic, even your super-awesome god. Even advanced theologians know this.

        3. If you think I’m running out of gas, please explain to me how I am wrong and how allah can do the impossible. Oh yeah and also explain how he can create a square-circle and a married bachelor. If he can’t, he must submit to logic.

        What I wanted was a real debate based on reason and logic and science, but you don’t want that. All you have up your sleeve is the Koran. I don’t accept the validity of the Koran and no non-Muslims do. What else do you have to make your case that is not a part of Islamic doctrine? If all you have to go on is your “holy” book of ancient desert ramblings, then I’m sorry, you are not prepared to for a real debate.

  7. why generalize members of a gay community in such a hostile way?
    many are good, peaceful people
    sure I have my disagreements with them but it is wrong to stomp on their rights or that of any other group

      • while you personally might not be stepping on their rights, many of your Muslim brothers are in other places. Tell me, what rights do homosexuals have in a traditional Islamic society? It seems to me that their only lifestyle options are death by stoning or death by firing squad.

      • Homosexuals are Human beings just like everyone else. And, like any & all other Human beings, they are sinners, just like any & every other sinner, by virtue of their practice & lifestyle, which is Islamically-prohibited. But, that doesn’t mean that they don’t have rights, they in fact do, just like everyone else: they have the right to be Muslims, to seek the repentance of Allah & improve their ways to the best of their abilities, they have the right to keep their sins to themselves & to not call others to their sins or to attempt to justify their sins, regardless of how “natural” to feels to them personally. These are the rights that they, as well as everyone else have.

      • So you are saying that homosexuals have the right to keep their lifestyles to themselves, but a slave owner can show off his captives publicly, and even beat them publicly if the slave is disobedient and worthy of punishment. Please justify for everyone here how the institution of slavery itself, is more moral than two consenting adults having sexual relationships in the privacy of their own homes and lives.

        Seriously, I need to know how slavery is less detrimental to human well being, than allowing gay people to live their lives as they wish.

      • Secondly, slavery is something that is conditionally allowed, Islamically, while Homosexuality is something that is unconditionally prohibited, no exceptions.

      • “Slavery is something that is conditionally allowed, Islamically, while Homosexuality is something that is unconditionally prohibited, no exceptions.” “Whatever Allah allows or disallows is what it is, regardless to how it coincides or differs with our intellect, ego, or desires.”

        My point exactly. This is admitting irrational behavior is OK, because allah says so. You can’t have an intellectual conversation with one who does not respect intellect and rational thinking.

      • You know, some of us like to think. And if thinking critically about morality and weighing many options to determine what is best for humanity is wrong under Islam, I don’t wanna be right. I will not suppress my intellect – our greatest achievement as a species – in order to conform with your “morals”.

    • Ali, thank you for your comments and show a reasonableness that is far beyond tolerance, but respect for another’s legal and societal rights. America is not a theocracy and Muslims who reside here are glad it is not, for they can practice their understanding of Islam in freedom here, where in other Muslim states they could face fierce opposition because of form and not of substance. I welcome your ease of living and let live.

      • The only reason why you’re glad to live in a nation like the United States is because here, you are given the choice to shamelessly justify a sin, that both Allah & His Messenger, via the Qur’an & Prophetic-Tradition, publicly, just to pacify your ego & desires. Personally, if people like Daayiee Abdullah (whom are given the green-light, to spread religious-corruption, by deceiving people into believing that committing a sin, publicly, and calling to a sin, publicly, is Islamically okay) are forced to be underground, then, yes, I would most-definitely rather live in a “corrupt-theocracy”.

        Oh, and, by the way, there are no such Muslim-Countries, in the world, today, which are true theocracies, because they are all either kingdoms, republics, Sheikdoms, etc., and all of these political-systems are contrary to Islamic-Law, anyway, because, the only valid, Islamic way for Muslims to govern other Muslims and/or even Non-Muslims, for that matter, is by establishing the Khilafah (Islamic-State).

      • Gareth, no need to use adab with someone as silly and nonsensical as yourself. You are glad you’re in this country yourself aren’t you, Gareth…as in other places you’d be a “abd” to your Arab slave masters who use the culture of jahaliya to guide your submission to the theocracy of Islam–not the faith in Allah–and remain a person who melanges our Creator, Allah’s message to all of humankind. Admit it, Gareth, you and your ilk of narrowminded cretins. You lack any semblance of adhering to Quran or Prophet Mohammad’s teachings…though you claim you know so much, though your support for such hatred is found in the “athar” of the sahaba, not the teaching of Quran or the authentic sunnah of Prophet Mohammad. What you do is continue an emotional diatribe…”much to do about nothing” and it shall avail you not. I’ve said it several times,…you are not Allah’s determiner and your continued buffoonery is not surprising.

      • 1. You have no entitlement to pontificate or even speak about Adab…What about your Adab with Allah? You, as well as people like you, blatantly rebel, publicly & shamelessly, against His commands & prohibitions. Allah has mandated that we stay away from sexual-offenses, Muhammad (Peace be upon him) has detailed what these sexual-offenses are(al-Kaba’ir/the Major-Sins, Muhammad ibn-`Uthman adh-Dhahabi); yet, you & people like you would rather disgracefully display your own sins, on the public-stage, shamelessly, and you really think that you won’t receive any negative backlash?!!!

        2. Referring to Adab with other creation, you’ve oppressed all of us-You & people like you have burdened us, because we have to be visual, verbal, witnesses to your self-exposed evil. You and people like you are exactly whom Muhammad had spoken of, concerning those whom are al-Mujahirun/the Shamneless (those who display their sins publicly). He said in a particularly narration, he specifically mentions that his entire nation is secure (from the wrath of Allah), except the Shameless: those who sin at night, while Allah covers their sins & reveals them purposely during the day.(al-Bukhari)

        3. You’ve been dodging the same issue, since the very first time that you’ve ever commented on any of my blogs: What justification can you possibly bring, to warrant the lawfulness of a sin (like Homosexuality, for example), something that Allah & His Messenger have already declared unlawful?

        4. How dare you even expect for people, like myself, to even take whatever Islamic-scholarship that you may have seriously, when you, as well as Muslims like you, fit the exact description of whom Muhammad had referred to as the Shameless?!!!

      • Gareth, honestly, why don’t you move to Egypt or Saudi Arabia, no one will miss you here in the US. We will continue enjoying our freedom and you can submit to the authorities there that you so desperately want.

      • If I were to leave the U.S., then wretched persons, such as yourself & Daayiee Abdullah would continue to poison the minds & hearts of the people. I’m not willing to just pack-up & leave, to leave people like you two to lead people away from Allah, and closer to the frie of Hell. Besides, I have every right to be here, by virtue of the fact that America is my homeland, and has been so, for the past 4 to 5 centuries. As an Afro-American Muslim, I have a religious-duty to stay here, to speak out against people like you, who want to deceive people into thinking that a divine-creator does not exist, and against people like Daayiee Abdullah, who want people to be comfortable with shamelessly following their desires, regardless to whether they’re things which displease Allah or not.

      • Gareth, mental illness exhibits itself quite often in emotional diatribes and incoherence in commentaries…seek therapy before you blow a fuse. Otherwise, Mike’s advise would do wonders for what you ache for…to be a slave to your Wahabi Arab trainers and slave drivers…they think they know what Allah’s faith means, but in truth, not unlike you, they don’t. How do I know? I studied and lived there for several years and I do know what I am talking about and you would fall into line of cultural jahiliya promoted as the faith of Allah. When you keep repeating the same thing expecting to get a different result…first sign of insanity. Maybe psychotherapy will help you get a grip on reality.

      • There is absolutely nothing emotional, on my end, concerning what I’ve written, nor concerning how I’ve been responding. You’re just resentful that there are people, like myself, whom are not afraid of your popularity & unwarranted prestige & are willing and able to stand-up to you & thus correct the diabolical misguidance that you are constantly spewing. And, as long as there are people like you, who shamelessly display their own sins, publicly, encourage others to do the same, and call people to sin, I will thus continue to do what I do, regardless to how much you despise it. And, studying in the Muslim-World doesn’t at all impress me: one, the Muslim-World is one of the most religiously-corrupt places on Earth, right now; two, whatever you have studied has obviously not benefited you, at all. You always seem to prove time & time again how important it is for Muslims to be upon the correct understanding of Islam, because, clearly, you are not. And, every time you post, or speak, you prove this.

  8. Gareth bro…i really appreciate your post and and the issue raised..i have go through all the comments and have found that these people are really getting your point,,but just to prove themselves right they are arguing…a great effort by you…JAZAK ALLAH bro 🙂

  9. I honestly cant even fathom what i just read. This by far blew my mind. Ignorance is alive and breathing. To compare rapist and child molesters to homosexuals is radical and completely wrong. As a muslim brother i cannot believe you are even engaging in such argument you have no right to say who has a correct understanding of islam and who doesnt. how dare you. Big up to the gay muslims who instead of leaving their faith continued to worship.

    • Well, ya betta get used to it (i.e. get over it)…The facts are the facts: Homosexuality is a sexual-offence, Islamically, just like Rape, Child-Molestation, Bestiality, etc. And, furthermore, Homosexuality is just as much as a sin as Fornication, Adultery, Lying, Stealing, Magic, Disrespecting one’s Parents, etc. Inherently, a sin is a sin, regardless of its severity. No one is perfect & we all have tests/trials & all of that. However, having weaknesses are in no way valid excuses to commit sins.

    • Well, that’s obvious that you’re here. But, being proud of committing a Major-Sin, that was one of the reasons why Allah, the Creator/Lord of the Universe, destroyed an entire Nation of People for, really isn’t something that any of you should brag about.

    • Now, don’t get me wrong, I haven’t pronounced Takfir/Blasphemy upon any Muslims who happen to be Homosexuals, because, religiously, that’s not my right to do. I do, however, have the complete religious entitlement, based upon what’s clearly established within both the Qur’an & Sunnah, to state that Homosexuality is (in principle) no different from: Bestiality, Child-Molestation, Rape, Fornication, Adultery, Masturbation, etc….these are all Rajm/Sexual-Offences, in the Sight of Allah, according to the Shari`ah/Islaimc-Law.

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