My thoughts on “Gay-Muslims”:

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Daayiee Abdullah pic

Author’s note:

This post is written as a result of a website that had been displayed on my Facebook timeline, called “gaymuslims.org”. So, since it was posted on my wall, I had decided to just take a look at what they were talking about. Usually, most Muslims, particularly Muslim men, consider this topic of discussion in and of itself “dangerous-ground”. But, for those who know me, I live kinda dangerously anyway.😀

Anyway, what I had found on the site was actually better than I had thought initially. I will share my opinions on this site, as well as the general motive that I perceive that the site intends. Now, it’s very obvious that Homosexuality is a big-deal Islamically. And, this issue is also a very touchy subject as well; but, in our modern-age, we, as a Muslim-Community, whether locally, nationally, or even globally, must address this issue full-throttle. There has to be some way that we can communicate with this particular demographic, in order to reach out to them, to call them to Islam. I mean, seriously, they deserve to be informed of the guidance of Islam, just as much as any other demographic. However, our approach would have to be very tactful & wise, but, also uncompromising.

I’ll explain what I mean:

Referring to being tactful & wise, this basically means that we, as Muslims, are to call people, who may be Homosexual, in a way that does not make us seem like we’re constantly condemning them, for their lifestyle-choice/sexual-preference. Realistically, Homosexuality was just as much of an issue during the lifetimes of the Prophets Lot & Muhammad (Peace be upon them), as it is now. We all know of the People of Lot, whom were the first persons, in Human-History, to be Homosexuals, and in Pre-Islamic Arabia, Homosexuality was so common among the Arabs, that Muhammad specifically said, “Don’t allow men who imitate women & women who imitate men into your houses.”.(al-Bukhari, al-Kaba’ir/The Major-Sins by Muhammad ibn-`Uthman adh-Dhahabi) But, this has never been the initial issue that Allah had command Lot, nor Muhammad, for that matter (Peace be upon them) to address their people with. In fact, the very first thing that Allah had ever commanded the Prophets (Peace be upon them all-together) to call people to is Tawhid/Islamic-Monotheism (the recognition & acceptance that Allah exists & and is the only one who is worship-worthy). In the Qur’an itself, it clearly mentions that the first thing that Lot was commanded to tell his people was to stop worshipping idols, and to start worshipping Allah.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.26, V.161-163)

Referring to being uncompromising, this basically means that even though we definitely want people to become Muslims, regardless of their respective lifestyle-choices/sexual-preferences, it needs to be made very clear that Homosexuality is in no way, shape, or form, an acceptable lifestyle-choice/sexual-preference. There are in fact two main things that the Muslim-Community has to make sure doesn’t happen: One, we cannot allow ourselves to be pigeon-holed in the public-eye, when it comes to this type of social-issue, as being people whom are not welcoming to all members of society, to accept Islam. In other words, we have to be sure that we, as a Muslim-Community, ensure people that the guidance of Allah, which is Islam, is for everyone, and to not imitate the Jews, who do not call people to Judaism, because they believe that it is just for them, just as Allah says in the Qur’an, describing the Qur’an itself as guidance for Humanity.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.2, V.185) And, also, we cannot imitate the Christians, who compromise so many things, just so people can be Christians. Historically, as well as contemporarily, Christians have watered-down their own religion, just to increase in numbers, disregarding their own religious standards, in order to be a popular religion. We must be honest with people, and inform them of what is right & wrong, according to Islamic-Law, not according to what our egos & desires tell us what is right & wrong.

It needs to be established that, according to Islamic-Law, Homosexuality is indeed a sin. At no time are we, as a Muslim-Community, to allow people to assume that we, as Muslims, legitimize Homosexuality, as something normal, natural, or a valid lifestyle-choice/sexual-preference. We must not allow ourselves, under the ambiguous & entrapping matrix of political-correctness, openness, moderation & modernity, to fog our own religious standards, and allow people to think that Homosexuality is a good thing, because according to Islamic-texts, from both the Qur’an & Prophetic-Tradition, it is 100% completely unacceptable, just like any other sexual-deviation-Just as vices such as: bestiality, child-molestation, rape, adultery, fornication are all Islamically deemed prohibited & shameful, so is Homosexuality.(Qasas-ul-Anbiya’/Stories of the Prophets by ibn-Kathir, al-Kaba’ir)

However, one of the many negative things which we as Muslims tend to do is place favoritism of certain sins over others, just like how Christians view Homosexuality as an abomination, yet, ironically, see no problem with worshipping Jesus Christ (Peace be upon him), a created thing, along with Allah, the Creator of the Universe, which, realistically, is far worse than any sexual-deviation. Islamically, a sin is a sin, and we, as Human beings, don’t have the right to say, “Well…at least this sin is not worse than that sin.”. Our objective, as Muslims, is to avoid sinning, in its totality, not to just avoid major-sins. Now, referring to the “gaymuslims.org” website, I do commend their intentions & efforts, to reach out to the Homosexual-Community. However, there needs to be a definitive stance against the lifestyle-choice itself, which I didn’t really see present on this site.

I know the reason as to why this had not been highlighted on this particular site, to not ostracize anyone & to make them comfortable enough to open their minds & hearts to Islam. But, I view this as a potential floodgate-opening, which could on a positive note, bring members of the Homosexual-Community to Islam. But, it could very well become a great challenge, by having them believe that they don’t have to alter their lifestyle-choices/sexual-preferences.

And, this is very problematic, because again, it has to be made crystal-clear that this sexual-preference is not natural, but rather a result of lack of exposure to divine-guidance, taught & learned behavior, and various emotional and/or psychological issues, which are imposed upon people. I mean, there’s a reason why the term lifestyle-choice has the word “choice” in it, and why the term sexual-preference has the word “preference” in it…that’s because when it comes to having consensual-sex with someone, it’s exclusively your own volition, which guides your decisions to copulate with members of either the same gender or the opposite gender.

This is really all that I have to say about this website, as well as this issue. I know that I’ll be getting a whole lot of both positive & negative feedback and comments about this post, which honestly, I gladly accept. Obviously, I’m no scholar, neither in a religious nor secular realm. But, I know just enough about both Islamic-texts, as well as secular issues, to speak about this issue. For anyone who would like to comment, please, comment away.

Gareth Bryant/2012

117 responses »

  1. Gareth Bryant, as-salaamu alayka. In critiquing your comments, I would suggest you move this line from the end of your essay to the very beginning so that those reading will never consider your opinion seriously…”Obviously, I’m no scholar, neither in a religious nor secular realm. But, I just enough about both Islamic-texts, as well as secular issues, to speak about this issue.”

    In discussing the issue of Homosexuality within Islamic context, I find the major problem you have is derived from your own personal ideals…though supposedly derived from Noble Quran (actually a very poor translation of the Arabic Qur’an) and ahadith (compiled nearly 200 or more years after the death of Prophet Mohammad)…there are many instances where you have not read the Quran and contemplated upon its meanings because you quote from “historic” texts without understanding the foundations upon which they used to support their opinions. Since you seek guidance from Quran, check out 24:31 where it speaks to women about the men they do not need to veil before…near the end, “…and men who have no desire for women and children who have no knowledge about sexual intercourse.” So who are these men who have no desire for women? Old men? Buzzer sound, Wrong answer…old men may not have vigor (unless they are pumping Viagra) and they still have the desire…ask any young Muslim woman how many older men have approached them with the line…young lady, if I were so many years younger I would….” How about those who are eunuchs…, again buzzer sound, wrong answer. Through castration or through medical ailment or physical injury, they don’t have an apparatus or can’t get it up? Well, check out 1,001 Nights and Sharizhad’s story about the Queen and the concubines having an affair with the eunuchs and being put to death. And then, of course, sound of clanging bells and whistles…you have gay men who have no desire for women…so what are they suppose to do, Gareth, discuss fashion tips, be best “friends” and discuss issues of why the women’s straight boyfriends and husbands are such “jerk-offs?” So I ask you to find in Quran where Allah has said you are to seek out homosexuals and demand their “change” to what you as a heterosexual are comfortable with as it relates to alternative living where consenting adults are free to be loving and caring couples regardless of their makeup…lesbian, heterosexual, or gay.

    Additionally the issue of the Lut story is about straight men who were married and they turned from their wives and promoted rape…a homosexual sexual act does not make one a homosexual…ask the men who have spent time in jail who are straight…it’s about power and control, Brother Gareth. But even more importantly, if you understood Arabic, the grammar of those “statements” you talk about men approaching men does not mean to “approach” as is understood in modern standard Arabic…to move towards someone, but in medieval Arabic, which is based off the Aramaic, it means to flood out like a flash flood…thus preserving the meaning of approaching the men in a mob/gang/flood of men after Lut’s guest to know them intimately. Does that sound like consensual sexual relationships between two adults like in a marriage? And you have to deal with the issue of why samesex marriage is not permitted within the Islamic legal framework…you make something illegal, thus no one can access the “legal” right to marry another of the samesex, but that is due to human interpretation and the instigation of unjust laws that permit them to punish and kill another human being as if Muslims are “divine” and not like Allah know the fate of another Muslim. What you are dealing with is politics and the power associated with such political game-playing…people suffer at the hands of the heartless who seek to direct hatred towards a powerless group of people…always look at the left hand and don’t look at what the right hand is doing…misogamy for the Muslim ladies, honor killings if they break the rules, kill the gays. True power of those who demand strict adherence to taqlid.

    So your conclusion that homosexuality is a sin is derived from what sources, brother? Quran or is it from “ancient scholars” who used methodologies that were less than honest and were part of court behaviors without true scholarship to support such claims. Check out Gabril Al-Banna, Hassan Al-Banna’s youngest brother–an Islamic scholar who is now 96 years old, who said that during the times of “ancient scholarship” claims the jurists in the Amir’s court used to make up ahadith just to suit the occasion or be shamed from the discussion…that is why so many ahadith are fabricated and have no true chain of transmission because the hate the gays and many of the hate women are singular lines of transmission in origin with Abu Huraiyah and Ibn Abbas in the lead. Or if you’re more thoroughly learned in Islamic studies, you can also look to the period of “salon” where scholars from various schools (far beyond the limited 5 most would accept today) would meet to discuss theological issues…and such discussions proved that Islam was much broader, deeper and more just, compassionate and merciful in understanding than what is promoted by Salafism and Wahabism today.

    Finally, your choice of words to say that something is a choice or preference…since you’re a human being, I want you to be gay, engage in samesex sexual acts, and then become straight. It is so easy and uncomplicated in its framework and source, please provide us the “cure.” The problem is that you cannot and then you expect of your brother what you do not wish for yourself. Furthermore, most gay people tend to somewhat well adjusted when they accept that they are gay and stop trying to please others for the sake of appearances…they must learn to live their truth before Allah and the world. Why do some gay people have psychological issues?–because straight people tend to run their gay and transgender family members crazy through beratement, shaming, physical attacks, abandonment or murder…talk about a great community of believers who seek to do harm to another Muslim…great Ummah there.

    Since the final determination is issued by Allah, I’m really confused to understand why so many Muslims have the false belief that they should be the arbiters of life and death, when they continue to fail to be the kind of vicegerents that cares for their” brethren and sistren.” Pretending to know all the answers and knowing all the answers are clearly distinct positions on the spectrum of Allah’s boundless justice, compassion and mercy. I see where you stand, steeped in another Prophet’s admonishment to those who follow what their forefathers and fore-mothers did (Abraheem), thus, the forgetfulness that there is no compulsion in religion, and one should seek compromise in non-Muslim lands, and fear Allah not for pleasing other Muslims, but for one’s own sake…and when a gay person has their “iqraa” moment with Allah, who are you to tell them what is and what is not serious study and reflection of Quranic truths, and how they should live their precious lives in dedication to Allah.

    Thanks for your attempt to explain yourself, but you did not do a very convincing job. Nonetheless, I await your response.

    • Salam!!!

      1. Referring to your claim that I derive my position from my “personal ideals”, the fact that I have quoted statements, from the Qur’an & Prophetic-Tradition, is proof that I am not personally driven in this discussion. If I were basing my position upon my own personal whims, why would I use statements from Allah & His Messenger, and could easily risk contradicting myself, if my position didn’t coincide with the Qur’an & Prophetic-Tradition? Also, you had mentioned that my translations of the Arabic-texts of the statements mentioned from the Qur’an & Prophetic-Tradition were poorly translated, my Arabic-teacher is Imam Siraj Wahhaj (who has been my Arabic & Islamic-Studies teacher, since the year 2000), and the last time that I’ve checked, Siraj Wahhaj is one of the most knowledgeable contemporary indigenous Muslims from the West, and arguably the most knowledgeable indigenous Muslim from the West & if I were to present this article to him, he would, most definitely praise it…enough said.

      2. Referring to your lame-claim that the Qur’an & Hadith were compiled only 200 years after the death of the Prophet (Peace be upon him), is completely an historical fallacy, clearly indicates how ignorant you are, concerning the history of classic Islamic-texts. The fact is that there were specific persons, whom were given unlimited authority from the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him), to document both the verses of the Qur’an, as well as his Prophetic-Statements. Among those, of the many whom were given such authority, are the following: Zayd ibn-Thabit, the official scribe of the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him), `Uthman ibn-`Affan, the third Khalifah/global Islamic-Ruler, `Abdullah ibn-`Abbas, the foremost authority of the the knowledge of the Qur’an, after the death of the Muhammad (Peace be upon him), Ubay ibn-Ka`b, who’s actually mentioned, by name, in the scholarly-lineage of the `Uthmani-Script, Abdullah ibn-Mas`ud, `Umar ibn-ul-Khattab, the second Khalifah/global Islamic-Ruler, Hafsah, (the wife of Muhammad [Peace be upon him] & daughter of `Umar ibn-il-Khattab), Abu-Bakr, the first Khalifah/global Islamic-Ruler, `A’ishah, (the wife of Muhammad [Peace be upon him] & daughter of Abi-Bakr), Umm-Salamah, (the wife of Muhammad [Peace be upon him]), `Abdullah ibn-`Amr ibn-il-`As, Mu`adh ibn-Jabal, and Abu-Zayd (May Allah be pleased with them),and more specifically, there’s a pretty popular statement of Anas ibn-Malik (May Allah be pleased with him), which is recorded in al-Sahih-il-Bukahri, that Qatada (May Allah be pleased with him) had asked Anas, “Who collected the Qur’an at the time of the Prophet?” He (Anas) replied, “Four, all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubay ibn-Ka’b, Mu`adh ibn-Jabal, Zaid ibn-Thabit and Abu-Zayd.”…so there you go.

      3. Referring to your erroneous statement: “A homosexual sexual act does not make one a homosexual.”, are you retarded?!!! I mean, what in the hell is wrong with you?!!! That’s like saying that “an adulterous act doesn’t make one an adulterer”, or that “an act of child-molestation doesn’t make one a child-molester”, or that “an act of rape doesn’t make one a rapist”.

      4. Referring to your claim that “men approaching men” doesn’t mean sexual in context, you’re obviously not well-versed in classic Tafasir (Qur’anic-Commentaries) of the Qur’an, nor are you well-verse in the specific actions & orders of the Prophet (Peace be upon him), concerning when men “approach other men”. Muhammad (Peace be upon him) has specifically said that, “If two men are witnessed approaching one another, the one ‘approaching’ & the one being ‘approached’ are to be both thrown from the highest cliffs.”(al-Kaba’ir)

      5. All in all, you’ve proven how Islamically ignorant you are. Do yourself as well as others a big-favor: Learn your Islam!!!

      • Chill out bro. Your original article was decent. But your response to Imam is really judgmental, condescending and quite rude. If you have such firm conviction in your stance, you needn’t resort to calling someone ignorant in order to to win an argument.

      • Quran Surah Family of Imran

        There is a verse that states: People why do you argue about things you dont know instead of arguing about things u do.know

        You dont know what its like to be gay so stop arguing about things u dont know

        You really want to help make a flyer and do a lecture educate your community stand up for all those youths who r struggling do.u have any idea how many suicides happen because you dont.want to accept it that a man can be muslim and be attractive to the same sex wether he fornicates or not u will never know because thats Gods job not yours u dont decide who can worship Allah and who cant just because you have some pre concived idea of homosexuality and you peesonally dont agree
        i go to mosque to pray and worship Allah not to.justify my existence
        i was 5 years old and i knew i was gay i was told that i was going to.hell not because i wanted to fornicate but because at the age of 7 it was so.natural that i seeked help and they said those people go to hell ‘those people as if we r another species there is no alter and lifestyle when it comes to beleiving in Allah
        rely only on Quran and Allah to guide me i found peace and u know whats sad the people that told me i was going to hell they dont even read Quran they just follow hadith and listen to people like you stating conjecture using hadiths that were written 100s of years after the prophet
        wake up Ummah
        There was no.shia or sufi or sunni or any other sect during the prophets time the people followed his words that he heard through gabriel
        Quran Only is all u need u scholars are such a disappointment hope that saudia arabia check is worth it

      • Ok…I’m going to take the liberty to address each of your statements in the following order:

        1. “You really want to help make a flyer and do a lecture educate your community stand up for all those youths who r struggling do.u have any idea how many suicides happen because you dont.”

        You really don’t know anything about who I am and/or what I do, becasue, if you did, you’d know that I’ve been an Anti-Suicide Advocate, working with the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, since 2011.

        2. “a man can be muslim and be attractive to the same sex wether he fornicates or not u will never know because thats Gods job not yours u dont decide who can worship Allah and who cant just because you have some pre concived idea of homosexuality and you peesonally dont agree”

        Yes, any Human being can be a Muslim, regardless of their Sins. However, that in no way means that these Sins are ok. Just because being a Homosexual is now becoming more “Politically-Correct”, as a direct-result of the Homosexual-Agenda, doesn’t make Homosexuality any less wrong Islamically, according to what Allah chooses to Divinely-Determine what is wrong. Homosexuality is wrong because Allah says so, not me, nor any other Human being.

        3. “i was 5 years old and i knew i was gay i was told that i was going to.hell not because i wanted to fornicate but because at the age of 7 it was so.natural that i seeked help and they said those people go to hell ‘those people as if we r another species there is no alter and lifestyle when it comes to beleiving in Allah”

        There’s no way that you knew you were “Gay” at age 5. Human being are taught Sexual-Orientation, Sexual-Orientation is something that is taught/learned behavior. And, in the case of Homosexuality, it is the result of ash-Shaytan/the Devil corrupting your mind at a very tender age. Also, those who out of the blue condemned you to Hell were not really trying to help you: they were trying to ignore the fact that you had a serious Spiritual-Pathology, and since your Spiritual-Pathology wasn’t properly dealt with/taken seriously, you are who you are today, but more so of your own volition.

        4. “rely only on Quran and Allah to guide me i found peace and u know whats sad the people that told me i was going to hell they dont even read Quran they just follow hadith and listen to people like you stating conjecture using hadiths that were written 100s of years after the prophet
        wake up Ummah”

        This statement truly shows how Islamically/Textually ignorant you truly are: the Qur’an & Ahadith were jointly documented/recorded during the lifetime of Muhammad (Peace be upon him), by several of the Sahabah/Companions (May Allah be pleased with them altogether), like Zayd ibn-Thabit, `Umar ibn-il-Khattab, `Uthman ibn-`Affan, `Ali ibn Abi-Talib, Hafsah bint-`Umar, `A’ishah bint Abi-Bakr, Ubay ibn-Ka`b, Abdullah ibn-`Amr ibn-il-`As, `Abdullah ibn-`Abbas, `Abdullah ibn-Mas`ud, Abu-Zayd, and the list can do on even further.

        5. “There was no.shia or sufi or sunni or any other sect during the prophets time the people followed his words that he heard through gabriel
        Quran Only is all u need u scholars are such a disappointment hope that saudia arabia check is worth it”

        This statement was just pointless: everyone knows that there weren’t any Sectarian-Groups during the lifetime of Muhammad. And, the Saudi-Check comment, Really?!!! You’re really that pathetic?!!!

      • Wrong, there’s tantamount proof that Ahadith were recorded/documented, just as the Qur’an was, by the same People, during the lifetime of muhammad (Peace be upon him). And, it’s painfully ironic that you would trust the Companions (May Allah be pleased with them altogether) with their documentation/preservation of the Qur’an, but not their documentation/preservation of Ahadith…#ThinkAboutIt

    • Wa alaikum alsalam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh,

      You’re response to the article seems to be a lot more opinionated than based on Islamic text as was claimed to Brother Gareth. The main issue I have with your response is your attempt to justify Homosexuality through Islam, which is not possible.

      When speaking about the people of Lut (Alaihil salam) I can understand what you mean by “A homosexual act doesn’t make one a homosexual”, meaning if someone goes and rapes a man, he may be committing the act but not necessarily looking to be a homosexual for lifestyle even though prisoners who come out of prison and have been doing the act in prison usually translate to do that outside of prison once free as well (so your use of prisoners was not a strong example really). But the issue with the people of Prophet Lut (Alaihil salam) was not just that they rape their victims, but that they commit the sexual act with another man and with desire. You’re use of the word “approach” in the qur’an is dubbed false by the Qur’an itself. Allah Subhanahu wa ta’ala uses the same exact word to describe how to “approach” one’s wife in verse 2:223. So that word is referring to approaching in sexual terms not “mob or ganging up on”. Because Allah describes the relationship between husband and wife as one based on mercy and love, and we don’t gang up on our wives.

      And furthermore to make it crystal clear Allah says in verse 7:80-81 (english traslation, check the Arabic for even more clarity)
      “And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, “Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds? Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people.”

      The act that is considered immoral here and focused on is the act of sexual intercourse with men and it’s because of the desire to do so or “choice” and it’s chosen over and avoiding doing that with women. And a solidifying proof to that is Prophet’s Lut’s solution to the people where Allah said in the Qur’an: “And his people came hastening to him, and before [this] they had been doing evil deeds. He said, “O my people, these are my daughters; they are purer for you. So fear Allah and do not disgrace me concerning my guests. Is there not among you a man of reason?” 11:75

      He offered his daughters as a solution (marriage), why did he not offer another man if it was just the fact that they were forcing themselves on others. The issue was made very clear in the Qur’an, their sin was “Approaching men sexually based on their desire” and it was made opposed to approaching women. Why that distinction was made by Allah except that it was the fact that their approaching men was the sin. And if that’s not the case and it is as you said the only sin was their rape, then does that mean that distinction was made because they raped men instead of women? So would that make raping women ok? And the fact that the people of Lut rejected his daughters saying “we have no concern for them (your daughters), you know what we want”….does that mean that it’s just for rape and not the fact that they are selective to men? And further more if the concern was rape, why in the world would the Prophet Lut Alihil salam offer his daughters in the first place? so they can be raped by them? It was done as an alternative to their desire for men.

      Having a desire for something doesn’t make it ok to act on that desire and it doesn’t mean that person with the desire is treated unjustly for not being allowed to act on it. Someone who has a desire for a woman is still forbidden to have illegal sexual relations with her. And someone who has the desire to enter the anal region of a woman has to control that desire even with his wife for the rest of his life. Islam is about submission to Allah, not our desires.

      • That was a very well articulated and argued refutation of the “Imam”, unlike Gareth’s crude, emotional, and unpolished response.

      • I’m not Muslim but I agree. We all have urges to sin but we must choose not too. If my boss upsets me I may have the urge slap him but if I did I would have to answer for it. As with our creator

  2. Well written article, Gareth. Just two points I wanted to make:

    1) People have debated endlessly about homosexuality and whether or not it is something “chosen” or “hard-wired”. Regardless of our stances on it, I think we need to widen the scope of the discussion a bit and realise why we as Muslims are thinking about this in the first place: it is simply to determine where it falls into what Allah has permitted/forbidden. We are judged by actions, and not feelings or emotions. As such, a person who may “naturally be homosexual” but does not act on it for the sake of Allah is in the right, and in fact would be receiving extra blessings as a result of his abstinence.

    My point for mentioning this is that homosexuality being a natural inclination is irrelevant to its permissibility. Muslims get caught up on this a lot, and in response a lot of gays argue that it’s simply not fair that God would condemn them for being the way He created them (which is a valid point, as it is in accordance with the last ayah of Baqarah which states “On no soul does Allah place a burden greater than it can bear”).

    Instead, we need to say that we’ve all been created with desires. Islam tells us how to control these desires, and we act accordingly. We get hungry, but we must refrain from certain food and drink. We feel sexual desires, but they can only be satisfied under certain conditions. No Muslim would disagree with this.

    Acknowledging this, it should then become silly for anyone to suggest that he is willing to abstain from alcohol and pork for the sake of Allah but can’t abstain from their own sexual desires because it “wouldn’t be fair”. Islam is about conviction, not whether you think you know better than your Creator.

    2) Try not to argue (this goes for everyone). Harsh words only undermine our message and credibility in the eyes of those who are reading.

    My grandfather put it awesomely for me once: “The louder someone gets, the less they have to say”.

    Just something to keep in mind. Keep it up!

  3. @ Mr. Daayiee:

    Allaah has sent The Noble Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam, May peace and blessings be upon him) as the best example for all mankind and jinnkind alike, everything that he did, said and allowed to be done and said, was all due to revelation sent down to him from Allaah, The Creator, The All-Knowing, The All-Wise. Thus, the 2 sources referred to for one’s actions and statements are the Qur’aan and The Prophet’s example, through his blessed speech, actions and his tacit approval. And everything was done and said in the presence one or many of his companions (May Allaah be pleased with them), which means that one must cite living examples of any practice in Islaam starting with the Companions of the Prophet (may Allaah be pleased with them all). As his wife, the Mother of the believers, ‘Aa isha (May Allaah be pleased with her) narrated, The Messenger of Allaah Sallallaahu ‘Alaiyhi Wa Sallam said: Whoever practices a practice that is not from this affair of ours (Islaam), It (the practice) will be rejected. (Sahih Muslim)

  4. leave all hadith aside for the moment… ‘daaiyee’ pulled a bunch of alleged information out of thin air by suggestion it was merely about ‘married men promoting rape’… he borrowed this from the queers amongst the deviated christian groups.

    Lo! you come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but you are wanton folk.” (7:80, 81)

    “O’ my people! Here are my daughters! They are purer for you! …” (11: 78)

    NOTICE HOW HE OFFERS WOMEN AND NOT MEN as an alternative! If it was merely an issue of rape, he would of offered willing men – so it could be consensual, and not rape. But no, sorry daaiyee – it is so clear, and we do not have to refer to hadith or saudi-translated Qurans to see that. Your perverted and invite others to your perversion. You are not merely sinning, your playing with the Deen to justify men playing with your ****….

  5. Considering how much attention Homosexuality gets in the Media and that large segments of the society has strong views on the matter in either direction it is relevant to be able to address or at least be aware of the matter as tactfully as possible as brother Gareth has indicated.

  6. Pingback: maturing beyond sinfulness « JRFibonacci's blog: partnering with reality

  7. ‎@ Daayiee Abdullah: You have incorrectly explained the verse 24:31 where you have suggested that towards the end of the ayath where it says “men who have no desire for women and children who have no knowledge about sexual intercourse” means Homosexuals. We don’t need to refer to any other source than the companions of the Prophet when it comes to understanding what the verses mean. We find that this particular verse was already explained to us by the companions of the Prophet (PBUH): Ibn `Abbas said, “This is the kind of person who has no desire.” `Ikrimah said, “This is the hermaphrodite, who does not experience erections.” This was also the view of others among the Salaf.

    As far as the punishment for this act, it has been well established based on authentic and classical sources as to what it is:

    Tirmidhi (1456), Abu Dawood (4462)and Ibn Maajah (2561) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

    The person who commits such act is also cursed: Ahmad (2915) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “May Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot, may Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot,” three times. This was classed as hasan by Shu’ayb al-Arna’oot in Tahqeeq al-Musnad.

    The Sahaabah were unanimously agreed on the execution of homosexuals, but they differed as to how they were to be executed. Some of them were of the view that they should be burned with fire, which was the view of ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) and also of Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him), as we shall see below. And some of them thought that they should be thrown down from a high place then have stones thrown at them. This was the view of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him).

    Unfortunately, in our times it is currently not possible to carry out these rulings because of lack of central Islamic authority, Khilafah. But soon, inshallah, these rulings will be implemented as we are witnessing the return of Islam in its entirety is on the horizon.

  8. Well said garret! My point is just this! Obviously we have to live wit one another in this world , but my problem is when “gay Muslims try to change Allahs words and intent to make room for homosexuality in Islam like the Christians did wit their religion! Allah wants us to procreate , how would u get a man pregnant if indeed u are also a Man? The Quran has never been changed and I’m quite sure some ” gay Muslims knows this, so my question is this! Where does Allah mention in the Quran or any of his books that homosexuality is amajor sin. So just because this society and media makes it ok dont mean the words of Allah has changed ! It’s
    My personal opinion that u can’t be gay and muslim

  9. I am not black, Muslim or believe in any world religion however I was brought up as an Armenian Orthodox and have learned to distrust Turkish Muslims for the problems they caused my people since 1915.

    With regards to you signing up for my blogs which you did today, Gareth, you scared me to death until I read your post. It seems as if you are searching for answers and a direction however you’re not going to find that out of my blogs.

    I am anti-muslim in every shape and feeling I can describe to you and for the life of me I have no idea why a black guy like you would embrace such a travesty of a religion? Confusing to me because a lot of black men turn to Islam because they feel belittled by America and they want to fight back with a religion that is dangerous and executes bad feelings towards their own women and children and anyone who does not mirror their own image or what they think fake god Allah’s image would be.

    Wouldn’t it be hilarious if Allah turned out to be a gay pussy half man/half woman who loved the color pink and was confused as to why men die on purpose expecting 72 virgins? I think it’s hilarious even if you don’t think so.

    What Black men fail to understand because they don’t know their own history is this: Egyptian kings and queens would keep black people as slaves to serve them during their tenure on the throne. However if that king/queen would die early; no matter how old that black slave was they would be entombed with their master upon their death and would usually die from starvation or other malady’s due to being enclosed without food or water in a tomb for days, weeks or months on end.

    You defend the right of gay muslims but in truth gay muslims will not live in any muslim country for fear of being killed.

    I think you’ve landed in a religion that finds even you an atrocity, Gareth. Perhaps you should rethink your devotion to a religion that enslaves woman, teaches children how to hate others not like them and sends suicide bombers into territories of the world to kill others because they do not accept Muslim or Islam.

    I just want you to be ready for my blog – I am gay, pagan and pissed off at Islam and Muslims in general and if this bothers you; you have the choice to leave.

    Bonju Patten

    • Firstly, may Allah guide you for your insolence, ignorance, arrogance & general stupidity:

      You’re insolent, because you’ve clearly allowed historical happenings to determine the position of your soul with the one who has created you, which is never a valid excuse to not be a Muslim. I mean, really, what excuse, or right, for that matter, do you have, as a created thing, to not worship the one who has created you?!!!

      You’re ignorant, because you clearly have no knowledge of what Islam is or isn’t. In fact, your ridiculous statement, “a lot of black men turn to Islam because they feel belittled by America and they want to fight back with a religion that is dangerous and executes bad feelings towards their own women and children and anyone who does not mirror their own image or what they think fake god Allah’s image would be.” not only makes you seem really dumb, but also very uneducated about anything related to Islam or Muslims. And, I can definitively say, as a Muslim revert, that myself, along with every single Muslim African-American that know, or have ever met, accepted Islam for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the garbage that you’ve just allowed yourself to think about & post here.

      You’re arrogant, because you’d rather justify being a slave to yourself, by following any & every lame-ass desire, which crosses your mind & heart, who has created nothing & sustains nothing in the Universe, instead of being the slave of Allah, the Creator & Lord of everything which exists.

      Furthermore, the fact that you’ve even mentioned random historical accounts of ancient Egyptians owning Nubians as slaves is types of ass-backwards retarded. What in the hell does ancient Egyptians owning Nubians as slaves have anything to do with Islam or Muslims?!!!

      Now, you’ve mentioned that you’re a Homosexual, a pagan; but, do you think that I’m hurt that you don’t want to recognize and accept the existence & oneness of the one who has created you, or that you enjoy being plugged up by another man’s penis, which by nature is oppressive, because it causes unnecessary harm, and thus also causes unnecessary anal/rectal/bowel-injuries (I’m just gonna take the liberty in assuming that you’re the bitch in the relationship & are the one being anally violated, based upon the tone of your writing in your post)?!!!

      The answer is undoubtedly no. Your confession, of being a person who is clearly misguided, by their own choice, to deny the existence & oneness of Allah, and to pursue a deviant sexual lifestyle choice, is not something that can or will ever hurt me. But, it can & will hurt yourself, especially if you don’t turn your life around & surrender whole-heartedly to Allah.

      This is my official invitation to learn about Islam, from someone whom has actually been a Muslim for nearly twenty years, and whom has studied extensively about Islam, in various subjects, and disciplines.

      May Allah guide you to Islam, and may Allah protect me from becoming like you, Amen!!!

      • Go away – you and your “religion” is an afront to man and woman kind the world over. Even your own people dislike you. You embody the word “nigga”. Allah is a 7TH CENTURY DESERT DEMON and you are a putz.

      • I respect my mother – she and my father created me. No one entity in the universe created all this mess and destroyed it to boot. Oh wait! That was your people – islam who destroyed everything and everyone who does not agree with them.

        Get off my blog creep.

      • Lastly the word “AMEN” is christian something which you are not. Hypocrite. Muslims suck and I hope you rot in hell.

  10. Pingback: A muslim african-american is following Bonju Blog and I don’t like him « THE WORD WARRIOR Bonju Blog

  11. Assalaamu alaikum, people. Jazak Allah khair for sharing your insights. I completely agree with you. A lot of times, we lose sight of the big picture in our dawah when we hone in too closely on issues that are not central to a person’s belief in Allah. For certain sins, we become like the Khawarij who believe that a sin negates one’s Islam; homosexuality is a prime example of this. At the same time, we condone other sins as if we can’t simply can’t avoid them.
    As a teacher in an Islamic school, I’ve been asked about Islam’s stance on homosexuality numerous times. I liken that sin to many others wherein people have a strong compulsion to indulge. Can we honestly say compulsive stealing, consuming pornography, using intoxicants, or having an illicit extra/premarital sexual relationship is any more serious than homosexuality?
    We call to the oneness to Allah and to the lifestyle of His prophets. We hope that people can reform their lives by living Islam, but even those raised Muslim struggle to stay upon the path. A person’s sins, rather than being an impediment to becoming Muslim, can actually be reformed by submitting to Allah.

  12. Gareth Bryant, I agree with you! Homosexuality is wrong and should not be allowed at all! Im not a very educated Muslim but can say this is if any of you think Homosexuality is not wrong tell me where it says in the Noble Qur’an!

  13. To Gareth Bryant:

    Salaam Mr. Bryant. May the peace, blessings, and mercy of The Most-Merciful, Ever-Merciful be upon you. It is The Almighty who guides us, and I pray that he guide my speech in what I am about to say. I will make two disclaimers before I speak any further. One – in all affairs, God knows best. I say this not simply because it is a matter of Muslim etiquette or social convention, but rather to remind myself of my own intellectual shortcomings. I have found that opening with this sincere declaration helps keep my ego in check. I share this information for the sake of God, for the benefit of others, and for my own self. Two – as there may be non-Muslims who are reading this, or fresh converts/reverts to Islam, I will use English rather than Arabic when referencing religious terminology. I humbly request that you do not disregard my statements on the basis that they do not adhere strictly to the average Muslim’s lexicon. Critique my message, not the particular choice of words I use to convey it.

    Mr. Bryant, I would like to take this opportunity to address the responses you have directed towards others in this post. You mentioned in one response that you have an excellent Arabic and Islamic studies teacher, Imam Siraj Wahaj. With all due respect Mr. Bryant, you should ask him to teach you how to properly engage in debate with others. No doubt, your dedication to learning about the religion is commendable, and I’m sure you’ve acquired much in those 20 years. Nonetheless, you need to learn how to make your arguments in such a way that it doesn’t sacrifice the compassion, mercy, graciousness, and humility that we are commanded to have. Let me be more precise.

    Please, for the love of God, do not call people retarded, stupid, bitch, etc when responding to their comments. Don’t call them ignorant and insolent, even if you sincerely think it’s true. You nor any other human being knows who it is that is truly on God’s path. Don’t express yourself in a manner that is abrasive and acrimonious. The following are examples of where your speech was either unbecoming of a Muslim, or not as gracious as God commands it to be when arguing/debating in matters of religion:

    “3. Referring to your erroneous statement: “A homosexual sexual act does not make one a homosexual.”, are you retarded?!!! I mean, what in the hell is wrong with you?!!!”

    “4. Referring to your claim that “men approaching men” doesn’t mean sexual in context, you’re obviously not well-versed in classic Tafasir (Qur’anic-Commentaries) of the Qur’an, nor are you well-verse in the specific actions & orders of the Prophet (Peace be upon him)…”

    “Firstly, may Allah guide you for your insolence, ignorance, arrogance & general stupidity…”

    “You’re insolent, because you’ve clearly allowed historical happenings determine the position of your soul with the one who has created you, which is never a valid excuse to not be a Muslim.”

    “You’re arrogant, because you’d rather justify being a slave to yourself, by following any & every lame-ass desire, which crosses your mind & heart, who has created nothing & sustains nothing in the Universe, instead of being the slave of Allah”

    “Furthermore, the fact that you’ve even mentioned random historical accounts of ancient Egyptians owning Nubians as slaves is types of ass-backwards retarded. What in the hell does ancient Egyptians owning Nubians as slaves have anything to do with Islam or Muslims?!!!”

    “Now, you’ve mentioned that you’re a Homosexual, a pagan; but, do you think that I’m hurt that you don’t want to recognize and accept the existence & oneness of the one who has created you, or that you enjoy being plugged up by another man’s penis…I’m just gonna take the liberty in assuming that you’re the bitch in the relationship & are the one being anally violated, based upon the tone of your writing in your post)?!!!”

    Please read the following verses, taken from the Yusuf Ali translation, to see the manner in which we should be debating and arguing. This is directly from the Qur’an, chapter 16. There are other verses that speak about this. chapter 29, verse 46 (29:46) is another. If you’d like to read it for yourself, google “Online Qur’an Project” and you will find a site with multiple translations. Mr. Bryant, if you really follow the Qur’an and example of The Prophet Muhammad, then see the following verses from Chapter 16, verses 125-128:

    125. Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious:[2140] for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.[2141]
    ٱدْعُ إِلَىٰ سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِٱلْحِكْمَةِ وَٱلْمَوْعِظَةِ ٱلْحَسَنَةِ ۖ وَجَٰدِلْهُم بِٱلَّتِى هِىَ أَحْسَنُ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَن ضَلَّ عَن سَبِيلِهِۦ ۖ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِٱلْمُهْتَدِينَ ﴿٥٢١﴾
     126. And if ye do catch them out, catch them out no worse than they catch you out: But if ye show patience, that is indeed the best (course)[2142] for those who are patient.
    وَإِنْ عَاقَبْتُمْ فَعَاقِبُوا۟ بِمِثْلِ مَا عُوقِبْتُم بِهِۦ ۖ وَلَئِن صَبَرْتُمْ لَهُوَ خَيْرٌۭ لِّلصَّٰبِرِينَ ﴿٦٢١﴾
     127. And do thou be patient,[2143] for thy patience is but from God. nor grieve over them: and distress not thyself because of their plots.
    وَٱصْبِرْ وَمَا صَبْرُكَ إِلَّا بِٱللَّهِ ۚ وَلَا تَحْزَنْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا تَكُ فِى ضَيْقٍۢ مِّمَّا يَمْكُرُونَ ﴿٧٢١﴾
     128. For God is with those[2144] who restrain themselves, and those who do good.

    Here is the translator’s commentary for each footnote:

    2140. ^ In this wonderful passage are laid down principles of religious teaching, which are good for all time. But where are the Teachers with such qualifications? We must invite all to the Way of God, and expound His Universal Will; we must do it with wisdom and discretion, meeting people on their own ground and convincing them with illustrations from their own knowledge and experience, which may be very narrow, or very wide. Our preaching must be, not dogmatic, not self-regarding, not offensive, but gentle, considerate, and such as would attract their attention. Our manner and our arguments should not be acrimonious, but modelled on the most courteous and the most gracious example, so that the hearer may say to himself, “This man is not dealing merely with dialectics; he is not trying to get a rise out of me; he is sincerely expounding the faith that is in him, and his motive is the love of man and the love of God.”
    2141. ^ It may be that the Preacher sometimes says to himself, “What is the use of teaching these people? They have made up their minds, or they are obstinate, or they are only trying to catch me out.” Let him not yield to such a thought. Who knows how the seed of the Word of God may germinate in people’s minds? It is not for man to look for results. Man’s inner thoughts are known best to God.
    2142. ^ In the context this passage refers to controversies and discussions, but the words are wide enough to cover all human struggles, disputes, and fights. In strictest equity you are not entitled to give a worse blow than is given to you. But those who have reached a higher spiritual standard do not even do that. They restrain themselves, and are patient. Lest you should think that such patience only gives an advantage to the adversary, you are told that the contrary is the case: the advantage is with the patient, the self-possessed, those who do not lose their temper or forget their own principles of conduct.
    2143. ^ In the previous verse are laid down the principles of conduct in controversy for all Muslims: ‘if you catch them out, you are not entitled to strike a heavier blow than you received, but it is better to restrain yourself and be patient.’ There patience was recommended. In this verse a command is directly addressed to the Prophet, ‘Do thou be patient.’ It is a command: his standard as the Great Teacher is much higher: and he carried it out in his life. His patience and self-restraint were under circumstances of extraordinary provocation. In his human wisdom it may sometimes have seemed questionable whether forbearance and self-restraint might not be human weakness: he had to defend his people as well as himself against the enemy’s persecutions. He is told here that he need not entertain any such fears. Patience (with constancy) in those circumstances was in accordance with God’s own command. Nor was he to grieve if they rejected God’s Message: the Prophet had done his duty when he boldly and openly proclaimed it. Nor was his heart to be troubled if they hatched secret plots against himself and his people. God would protect them.
    2144. ^ And the Sūra ends with the highest consolation which the righteous can receive: the assurance that God is with them. A double qualification is indicated for so high an honor-(l) that they should not yield to human passion or anger or impatience, and (2) that they should go on with constancy doing good all around them. To attain the Presence of God in the sense of “I am with you” is the culmination of the righteous man’s aspiration, (Cf. 27:70).

    I leave it to you, and others who share your approach, to really reflect on this passage and accompanying commentary. Honestly ask yourself if you’ve adhered to what God commands us to be in these verses. Perhaps you will find that an adjustment in your approach is in order.

    God knows best.

  14. No sexual orientation is haraam. Sexual acts of others are not our business. Allah knows best.

    And I absolutely agree with Shaykh Ibrahim Tareef’s comments above, and I thank him for sharing them. For myself, passages like this are a reminder that there is so much that I can improve of my own conduct that concerning myself with the private affairs of others is a stray path.

    • Sexual orientation (feelings) are not haram. Certain sexual acts are.

      This idea of a sin not being our “business” totally destroys the concept of naseehah (advice). Really, what is commanding good and forbidding evil if everyone ought to be left to their own devices?

      • We are to command good and evil, yes – but we should do so equally. We should not pick and choose which prohibitions to enforce, and if you’re not enforcing all prohibitions when you hear about transgressions, then you are adopting a passive form of picking and choosing.

        When it comes to other sins, Muslims aren’t as zealous to condemn those who commit them. How many times have you known of someone who doesn’t pray 5 times a day, if they pray at all? Do you run them out of the mosque and call them a kafir? You probably don’t. And yet the command to pray is given many, many times more than the command against homosexual acts. Gareth cited the list of 70 grave sins in Islam. Not praying is #4 on that list. To not pray is not a trivial violation of Allah’s commands.

        Think how many of us know people (Muslim and non-Muslim) who work in banking, loans, stocks, mortgages, real estate, or finance. Many of these banking and finance careers are ones full of riba, usurious interest! It was these same bankers who callously sought to maximize profits, and in the process pretty much threw the world into a global economic recession, that borderlined, and still does, on financial crisis. I’m sure there were at least some Muslims working in or for these companies. Yet no imam or shaykh commands them to stop this evil. Allah says in the Qur’an not to consume riba, in surah Al-Imran, ayat 130, to give an example. See this link on riba for more info:

        http://www.iisna.com/articles/pamphlets/the-dangers-of-riba/

        Despite how haram riba is, many of our young Muslim brothers and sisters are working in these industries. They are making THE CHOICE to work in these industries – often times with social/family pressure. Where are all the pious Muslims to command that these Muslims stop doing what Allah has said to be wrong? Why aren’t we throwing Muslim bankers and stock brokers out of homes and masjids? We don’t. We allow it to happen.

        Yet when it comes to the issue of homosexuality, all of a sudden every damn wanna be mufti comes out of the woodwork to chastise, criticize, condemn, ostracize, berate, belittle, and shun a Muslim who happens to be homosexual. How is this not a double standard? On that list of 70 worst sins in Islam, riba is #12 – right behind sodomy, #11. Clearly them must be on the same level of severity if they are ranked right next to each other. yet you only hear about ONE of them. In fact, I would venture to say that riba is perhaps more prevalent, endemic, and threat to the moral fabric of society than homosexuality. The poverty and exploitation that is created by riba, or riba related jobs/actions, has a far more reaching and devastating impact than someone being open about their sexual orientation. Yet riba isn’t talked about when Muslims choose to command against evil.

        How many of us know, or ourselves are, fornicators? If you have sex before marriage, you are a fornicator. I’ve even heard that any dating and/or physical intimacy is a lesser form of fornication. Do we label these persons as fornicators, and only identify them with that word? NO, we don’t. We still acknowledge their humanity and value as a human being. We still respect their human rights. We don’t shun them and speak about them as fornicators. They are still Muslims, despite their flaws. Fornication is #4 on that list. I don’t ever see fornicators being flogged or given lashes in the streets for fornicating, despite the ayat in the Qur’an that commands the believers to flog the fornicators. if you don’t believe me, it’s in surah An-Nur, right at the beginning. The community knows about sex before marriage happening, but they don’t say much to those who do it. Elders might tell them to stop, but that’s about it. I don’t ever see young Muslim college students taking these fornicators out into the hallway and flogging them, despite the fact that it is these young Muslim college students who are the most likely to know about these sins (if you’ve ever been a part of an MSA, you know about masjid gossip).

        yet when it comes to homosexuals, that’s all we see: gay. That’s all we view the person as. Our ummah labels them with that word the way Jews were singled out in nazi Germany. Our ummah does not acknowledge their humanity and innate human value. Our ummah is quick to judge and condemn. Our ummah, who claims to be the representatives of THE ALL MERCIFUL, EVER MERCIFUL on Earth, says it is ok to throw the gay person off a cliff; that it’s ok to beat them in the streets; that it’s ok to put them in prison; that it’s ok to kill them – all only for being gay. This is a clear double standard. Not only that, but in some cases it’s not even Qur’anic!!!! There is no ayat that says to throw the gay Muslim off a cliff, but out community accepts it at face value when someone with a beard says there is. As I said, there is an ayat that talks about giving lashes or flogging a fornicator, yet our community ignores that ayat. Do all these gay bashers find nothing wrong with that?

        We all know of young South Asian Muslims who marry outside of their race, or outside of their parents’ preference. I know one who married a white American Muslim convert. The person he married is loving, kind, pretty, and most important of all, loves her deen. She converted to Islam before she met him, not for him. His parents have refused to talk to him since then, because he did not marry the person of their choice or culture. They completely abandoned/disowned him. But no one commands them to stop this, to pick up the phone and tell their son 3 simple words: “we love you.” Abandoning relatives is #9 on that list of grave sins. Yet of his whole family, no one commands them to stop. I know another brother who has fathered 11 children. ELEVEN CHILDREN. He himself admitted to not taking care of them, of owing thousands of dollars in backed child support. He had these kids out of wedlock, or with Shiite short-term marriages, even though he considers himself more Sunni. He takes care of only 1 of his kids. The rest he left to fend for themselves, with baby mommas who are in who knows what kind of difficult situations because of that abandonment. This man is clearly abandoning his relatives, #9 on this list, yet he has no problem speaking about how you can’t be gay and Muslim, that homosexuals aren’t Muslims, that gays should be tossed off a cliff, that to be friends or show kindness to a gay person makes you one too, etc. All this garbage he can say about them…yet he won’t stop and make amends for the sins in his own life.

        And these 2 examples are not isolated events. There are soooo many in our ummah who are guilty of the same double standard and selective commanding. They are find faults with others, but won’t look at themselves. Worse, they chastise and villify these others, but won’t hold themselves accountable. How is this acceptable?

        I am not saying that we shouldn’t command good and evil. That is one of Allah’s commands. I am not saying that homosexuality is 100% permissible. God knows best, and I’m not about to put my opinion out there on something I don’t fully know to be true.

        What I am saying is this: We should treat homosexuals with the same compassion, mercy, and respect we give to other Muslims. We should view them as individuals who make mistakes, just like we do. We should not view them AS their mistakes. There is a big difference.

        Before we condemn and command against evil, we should reflect on the detrimental affects our approach can have on their faith. Many might end up truly thinking that they cannot be Muslim, even though Allah does not say that. Shirk is the only unforgiveable sin in Islam, nothing else. We push these gay Muslims away from Allah, who is known as AR-RAHMAN, AR-RAHIM, the one who is merciful to all peoples and creations. There is something wrong with us not adopting that same mercy in our approach.

        If you’re going to command people to stop what you think or know to be wrong, don’t do it by kicking them out of the mosque. Don’t throw them out of your homes. Don’t threaten them. Don’t beat them. Don’t imprison them. Don’t call them names and tell them they can’t be Muslim, or that they’re going to Hell. If we did this for every sin…there would be no one left in the masjid. One of the masjid’s many roles is as a spiritual triage room, not a court room. Stop appointing yourselves as judges. People, gays included, go there to feel closer to Allah, not pushed away.

        When they get the treatment our ummah gives them…it really messes them up. Not only are they disowned by their families, not only are they hated in our ummah for being gay, they’re also disliked, mistrusted, or even hated by society in general for being Muslim. The only community they have is the gay community, which unfortunately does not always have strong moral guidelines and boundaries. When we push gay Muslims out of our communities, we are pushing them into these, the only places they feel accepted. Put yourself in their shoes the next time you feel like commanding against evil. Think carefully about the words you use. And if you feel like getting all judgmental and preaching, think about your own shortcomings first. Are you really that perfect? Are the actions you are taking to condemn this person really what Allah commands?

        To treat people poorly for their sins, and turn people away, would be contrary to the prophetic example:

        “God is gentle, and He loves the adoption of a gentle attitude in all matters.” (related by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

        “There is a reward for kindness to every living thing.”

  15. Could it be that the companions simply embedded their own prejudices into a book and called it holy? After all people are misquoted all the time. If you don’t accept gays they will just leave . You can’t change your sexual orientation. Don’t waste your life trying.

    • Now, referring to what you’ve mentioned about the Companions of the Prophet (Peace be upon him), let me tell you something: there are specific things mentioned in the Qur’an, that neither Muahmmad (Peace be upon him), nor any of his Companions (May Allah be pleased with them all-together), nor any other Human being upon the entire planet could’ve possibly known at that particular time that the Qur’an was revealed. And, I’ll give some examples:

      1. The creation of the Human, inside of the vaginal canal of the Human female-

      Allah clearly states that the Human being was created from `Alaqah (a clinging-substance). And, the Arabic definition of `Alaqah is a substance that clings to the womb. Now, we know, in the modern-age, that `Alaqah is the fertilized Fallopian-Ovum. This was not at all known 14 centuries ago, by virtue of the fact that there’s no way that anyone could’ve known, before the revelation of the Qur’an, that Humans were made from the Fallopian-Ovum, because the Fallopian-Ovum cannot be seen with the naked Human eye.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.75, V.38 & Chpt.96, V.2)

      2. The origin of Iron-

      Allah states about Iron that it was sent to the Earth, and there has been scietific discoveries admitting that Iron indeed came to Earth, via meteor showers, asteroid showers, etc. And, this was made known, 14 centuries ago, in the Qur’an, at a time when no Human being on Earth had this knowledge, at that time.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.57, V.25)

      Now, referring to your erroneous claim that a person cannot choose their sexual-orientation. What about in the case of a man being raped in Prison, and because of the shame, he decides to lead a Homosexual lifestyle? Are you saying that he was a Homosexual, his whole life, but just needed to be raped in Prison, to trigger what was naturally within him? That’s retarded!!! And, there’s also an example from Cynthia Nixon, from the Sex & the City franchise. She is openly Homosexual, but, she adamantly stated, herself, that she chose to be Homosexual. Now, explain that!!!

      • I’ll explain it.

        You set up an argument counter to your position, passing it off as a supporting argument for your opponent’s position (their position being that sexual orientation is not a choice).

        You then provided an outlandish example, that cannot be generalized, to validate this supporting argument (so called converted homosexuals, who ‘switch teams’ after traumatic prison rape never enters into sexual orientation discussions – that’s all your own doing).

        Then, you glossed over the flawed logic in this example, pretending to ‘logically’ follow through it’s implications (no one said the person was a closet homosexual and needed to get their shit pushed in to uncloset them – YOU said that; and even if they did…IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE).

        Finally, you struck down this poorly constructed example and supporting argument, thereby proclaiming victory as a master debater by means of an emphatic request to have your opponent explain the hot garbage that came out of your mouth (you didn’t even bother to address some of the stronger points other commentators have made; I guess you have no answer to them).

        You’re a tool. Before I go, let me do my victory dance, a la Gareth style:
        Now, explain that!!!!

        p.s. – I would have kept it at a mature level, but you clearly don’t know how to do that, given your response history and very politically incorrect use of the word retarded. So, how bout a taste of your own medicine? Here’s my big gay penis splooging all over your blog:

        8====D — – – – – – – (your face here)

        It’s been swell,

        ME

      • Wow…it’s oh so easy to hide behind a screen name & talk trash. But, how about you muster up some integrity & courage, and comment on my page, by revealing yourself. Since ya have so much to say, you should be man enough to say it unashamed, from behind ya screen name mask.

        And, since we’re on the subject of contradictions: The fact that you can enjoy the liberty of existing, breathing, eating, drinking, thinking, learning, mobility, agility, and any & all other mundane things that Allah, the Creator of the Universe has granted you, yet, you still have the never to deny the existence/oneness of your Creator, and to add insult-to-injury, by not only being a Disbeliever, but, you’ve forfeited your right as a created thing to exist.

      • There will be a day that you will regret being so arrogant, and, that day is the Day of Standing. It will be a day that Allah will question & judge you, based upon your statements & actions; and, if you do not accept Islam, as guidance from Allah & die as a Disbeliever, then you will suffer in your grave, when you die, as well as in the Hereafter, in Hell. So, for your own sake, stop wasting your time trying to dis me & start reflecting upon yourself and accept Islam.

  16. You can believe everything in Islam and not practice and still be a Muslim, albeit a bad Muslim. On the flip side you can believe and practice everything in Islam and disbelieve one thing or add one thing and you are no longer a Muslim. Committing a homosexual act does not necessarily mean you are no longer Muslim. It means you have committed a grevous sin. But stating homosexuality is an “Islamicly” acceptable lifestyle can make you a non Muslim. You have committed shirk if you believe homosexuality is an acceptible lifestyle, therefore giving any appropriate clergy the clear evidence to place that person outside the fold of Al-Islam. That persons Islamic practice will not be accepted until they repent (make taubah). Any prayers or practice missed during that time of being outside Islam will have to be made up. “… oh you who believe, fear Allah… and do not die except in a state of submission to Islam… “.

    • Riyaad, salaam and thanks for your comments, however, you are incorrect on two points…(1) having a same sex relationship either as a mutah or nikah is not a sin. (2) providing role models of healthy same sex relationships is not shirk…only having partners with Allah is shirk. Riyaad, you’re quite steeped in culture and not so much in Quran. May I suggest you study more. Salaam.

      • @Daayiee

        Firstly, for the Muslim, sexual-intercourse, marriage, etc, is an act of worship. Based upon what has been already mentioned in this article, as well as from the Arabic-Language, period. I mean, the word “Nikah” itself actually means, “Sexual-Intercourse”. And, Islamically, one is not allowed to have sexual-intercourse with someone, unless they are married to them, and/or a female-slave of a man.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.23, V.6) And, there is no such text, neither from the Qur’an, nor the Prophetic-Tradition, which justifies someone/anyone having any form/type of sexual-contact/sexual-intercourse with members of the same gender.

      • @Daayiee

        Secondly, you really need to be ashamed of yourself, for being so shamelessly self-indulged in something that is well-established as a Sin, Islamically, both within the Qur’an & Prophetic-Tradition. Muhammad (Peace be upon him) has said, “My Nation is safe (from the wrath of Allah), unless they become al-Mujahirun/the Shameless”. They Companions whom were present (May Allah be pleased with them) had asked him whom are al-Mujahirun. He responded, “al-Mujahirun/the Shameless are those who display their sins publicly/sin publicly.”.(al-Bukhari) And, you sir, Daayiee Abdullah, are Mujahir/Shameless: you not only self-indulge in a Sin, publicly, but, you have the audacity to attempt to justify it, publicly, and you have the audacity to encourage it, publicly, and you have the nerve to remain a religious-leader, while you’re self-indulged in an obviously established sin, Islamically.

      • Thus, Gareth, you again get into ad homenim commentary…fallacies are fallacies, and you are continously depending upon mythology rather than Quranic truths continues to show you don’t know what you are talking about. The rule of shari’ah is if there is no Quranic prohabition then there is no crime. It is legal manipulation of zinah as a crime against heterosexuals who are not married, thus if the law of zinah misused by jurists of ancient lore that does not allow samesex couples to marry…and for them to claim that it is the same crime. Heterosexual crime becomes a crime of homosexuals??? But the real deal is… No, it is not a criminal act for as we can see in countries today that do permit samesex marriage, samesex couples marry and their sexual relationships are halal…because they have sex as a married couple…the same as heterosexual couples do when they are married. So, dude again you don’t know what you’re talking about…and isn’t there a sin about backbiting another Muslim is like eating their flesh???

      • 1. Allah displays His great disdain for sex-sex relations in the Qur’an, itself.(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.7, V.81; Chpt.11, V.78-80; Chpt.27, V.54; Chpt.29, V.29; Tafsir-ul-Jalalayn; Qasas-ul-Anbiya’/Stories of the Prophets, ibn-Kathir; al-Kaba’ir/The Major-Sins)

        2. Muhammad (Peace be upon him) has stated, referring to witnessing two members of the same-gender (in the following narration men specifically), “Whomever witnesses two Men approaching one another, the one approaching/penetrating, as well as the one approached/penetrated, are to be killed.”.(al-Kaba’ir/The Major-Sins)

        3. We know that when Muhammad had ordained that those whom are sexually involved with members of the same-gender (Male-Male sexual-intercourse/sexual-contact), if/when caught in the act, are to be executed, it is very clear that this is Revelation, from Allah, and not his own personal-whims, because, Muhammad was never allowed to either allow, prohibit, recommend, shun, anything, relating directly to ash-Shari`ah/Islamic-Law, regarding allowances, prohibitions, regulations, etc., unless directly instructed, by Allah, Himself, either from the Qur’an or various other types of Revelation from Allah (the Wisdom/Sunnah).(Noble Qur’an: Chpt.2, V.150-151; Chpt.53, V.2-4; Tafsir-ul-Jalalayn)

      • My comments above again puts your cyber-trash thinking on the line. It is getting to the point I seriously believe you have some issues with your own sexuality, and that’s something you’ll have to explain to your readers or spend some time on the therapist’s couch to handle. I continue to point out your cyber-copying learning that does nothing but reiterates the same trash I’ve shown has no truth in it, but you continue to keep throwing it like it does. Do you remember the myth where the old woman kept throwing trash as the Prophet’s door and when it didn’t happened he inquired what happened to her? Keep throwing cyber-trash, dude, and I’ll keep stepping over it. Do some serious studies and then meet me for discussion, for now it’s nothing to discuss but your attitude and proclivity to name-call and that’s childish.

      • Both of you need to stop. Whatever merits your arguments may carry is negated by how you deliver them. This is not Muslim etiquette.

        Daayiee, it is unanimously agreed upon that in Islam, marriage is between a man and woman exclusively. The contract and the details that go with it only have specifications for that union, and there are multitudes of verified ahadith that forbid others.

        The people of Lut (as) were punished for engaging in sexual relations with those of the same gender. There is no other tafseer of the wording used — it is very clear-cut. This is really not a grey/misunderstood area.

        Please understand that while feelings are not forbidden and can never be, actions are. Your privates are awrah from everyone except those you are married to, and there is no marriage between two men or two women in Islam.

      • Amin, I do agree that both of you need to stop passing on views that do not have the support of Quran. What you and Gareth continue to promote is religious dogma…made up by human beings and not found in Quran. The problem is making up laws that do not have the support Quran and then applying them to human whim, i.e., prohibitation against samesex marriage, when the rule is sex in marriage…now in many countries and states in the US samesex can marry, thus the Quranic standards are met, but human beings continue to hold on to their dogma and not what Quran requires for marriage. For additional information, even in the 5 schools there is a variance of what is and is not permissible within the spectrum of Islam. So when folks stop pretending there is only one way to see Islam and that Islam is OUR religion, just maybe honest and truthful discussions can be held as to what is the highest standard for Muslim of all backgrounds and orientations.

      • Um, when I said “stop”, I meant the mud-slinging. You guys have both resulted to insulting one another and it is unbecoming of us.

        Please explain to me how this is made up:

        ———————————————————–
        “We also (sent) Lut: he said to his people: ‘Do you commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For you practise your lusts on men in preference to women: you are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.'” (7:80-81)

        “‘Of all the creatures in the world, will you approach males? And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? No, you are a people transgressing (all limits)!” (26:165-166)
        ———————————————————–

        This is an extremely clear-cut prohibition of same-sex relations, and I challenge you to bring me any tafseer that claims otherwise. The definition of marriage is also very clearly outlined in the Qur’an:

        ———————————————————–
        “And Allah has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature. And made for you out of them sons and daughters and grandchildren…” (16:72)
        ———————————————————–

        There are plenty of verified ahadith on the matter as well.

        Leave all rhetoric about dogma and being comfortable with sexuality aside — it has no bearing on evidences we bring to claim the prohibition/permissibility of an action.

        You don’t have to answer us, this is for you to think, and I mean really think to yourself about whether or not your actions are allowed or not…at the end of the day, it’s just about following Allah’s command, and that’s what we’re discussing here.

        We shouldn’t lose sight of that.

      • Amin, thanks for replying, but it all ends up in what side of the equation that one finds most appealing. (1) if you believe Lut story is about homosexuality you lean in your direction, and if it is about heterosexual men raping, then it leans in my direction that it is not about homosexuality. (2) Tafseers are nothing but another human beings rendering of what they have read and come to reason, thus tafseers have no more value than any other person using the same tools of Quranic sciences and ahadith sciences to prove or disprove their point(s) of view, thus if you want to believe those tafseers to be sacroscant, then you are free to do so and if one does not, then it becomes another piece of writing of another long dead scholar. (3) As I said before, it is OUR religion (anyone who does the shahaddah is Muslim) and not yours, Gareth’s, OR some other person/people you claim to know/claim they know Allah ibetter or more aware of Quran and it’s meaning(s) when Quran is for all of humankind for all of human time, thus no one’s rendering is true for all time…unless you are Allah. So what you depend upon as ancient scholarship is just that and does not mean it performs the job of handling modern life and living. (4) As to following Allah’s command(s) then when you have read the Quran you have come to your conclusions and when I have read Quran I have my own, is that not true,…so for you to claim you have the high ground is a fallacy, particularly when playing the numbers fallacy. What you forget is that our prophets from the beginning to the end of the people of the books, they were or have been alone and with Allah, not a large number of people agreeing they have the answer. So in terms of the Quraish, large number and tribes to boot with power and prestige, but it was Prophet Mohammad and Allah and the Quraish did what??? Losers in the end. If you want to believe the pablum, you’re welcome to it. I don’t have the taste for warmed over dead rituals so many muslims love to inculcate and swallow whole. Quran is more than rules, it is mercy, compassion and justice for all, not JUST US ONLY thinking. Salaam.

      • I’m sorry Daayiee, it doesn’t work that way.

        “For you practise your lusts on men in preference to women…”

        “…will you approach males? And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates?…”

        Both ayahs specifically talk about choosing men vs. women, and makes no mention of rape. Going in the direction one finds most “appealing” is also a faulty approach to our deen. We go with what is most convincing, not what sounds better to us or society.

        It is not about tradition (a notion of yours I agree with), but rather integrity. It is impossible to understand the evidences in any other way without skewing it. There are certain issues open to ijtihad (extrapolation), and some that are outright stated and have no room for doubt, like riba (usury). Homosexual relationships falls into the latter.

        Tafaseer are not sacrosanct, true, but if you cannot perform tafseer, you have to depend on the tafseer of another. My point was that the meaning is so clear that there is no room for doubt or mufassireen would have made mention of it.

        Being dead or old has no bearing on validity, brother. As I’ve said, we need to exclude all rhetoric about modernity/sexual acceptance/new vs. old and the like…it doesn’t mean anything to whether or not something is allowed. It is through that lens I encourage you to look at the issue.

        Mercy exists, but so do rules. We have to take both hand-in-hand. We cannot write off rules in the name of mercy or forgiveness.

        I’m not claiming a higher ground, I meant the statement for you, me, and everyone else involved in this conversation — we need to remember our purpose. It’s not about winning an argument, making someone else feel inferior, or justifying a conclusion reached before research. It’s about pleasing Allah, a journey we are all on together. Our discussions should only aim to help one another reach that goal.

        With that note, I’ve said all that I feel I can say on the issue. At this point we just need to make sure our intentions are pure as we follow our true conviction. I wish the best for you and me; may Allah accept our efforts to get closer to Him and avoid His punishment.

      • Amin, thanks for writing and thanks for your comments, and even to the point of agreeing with me that there are some things that muslims will depend upon that have no value to the discussion at hand. However, therre are some issues discussed is that you have a particular point of view and I have a different point of view…and as I stated several times throughout this discussion, you view things in one way and I another…and since the interpretations are varied and not verifiable unless Allah makes such a judgment, it will be a agree to disagree position. One final comment, what I continue to find as the mantra of most muslims is one of uniformity…everything is and has to be in one way, yet it avoids and ignores that tawheed is unity or in its highest form unification of the ONE. Continuing to promote that OUR religion is skewed towards one particular way without an understanding there is a specrum of understanding and viable ways to live our lives as muslims, there will continue to be disagreements and Allah’s judgment will settle the course. Be well, and may Allah continue to guide and bless us all, Ameen.

      • Also, Backbiting is in no way in the equation, because the Islamic definition of Backbiting is to mention something about someone, which is true, only to make them look bad, in front of others. You’ve placed yourself out on front-street, by arrogantly displaying, boasting, justifying via your eg/desires, your own perosnal-sins, which Islamically none of us have any right to do.(al-Bukhari) So, if anything, you’ve backbitten your own slef, Daayiee Abdullah, for exposing your own sins, in the public-sphere. By the way, why did you call yourself Daayiee? Daayiee means “A Caller”; but, you are obviously calling to the way of ash-Shaytan/the Devil, via blatant, shameless, disobedience to Allah, publicly. And, ironically, changing one’s name is a Bid`ah/Innovation, Islamically, anyway. So, not only are you calling people to misguidance, via worshipping one’s ego/desires, by majorly-sinning, indiscriminately, you’ve also done something, additional, which isn’t from the Sunnah, from the door.

      • Gareth, over and over again you spew the same cyber-think and you won’t deal with your ad homenin attacks. The question remains, prove my legal theories incorrect? You like to delve into Shari’ah without providing any reasoning…always something besides knowledge in Shari’ah, and always based in cultural myth. You can’t and you know you can’t thus the only recourse is to continue name-calling as do elementary children who know little but think they understand the world. I continue to see the undercurrent of ignorance you promote and others may not have the wisdom to see it too.

  17. Daayiee Abdullah is only concerned with worshipping his own ego/desires, pertaining to this issue, as opposed to establishing the true Islamic stance on this issue. It’s so clear to see: just look at how he has commented to your response, Amin. It’s ridiculously obvious that he is just Hell-bent upon following his own whims & opinions, which are not at all based upon any reliable texts, neither from the Qur’an, nor from the Prophetic-Tradition, nor from the example of anyone from the Salaf (as-Sahabah/the Companions [of Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah] & at-Tabi`in/the 1st & 2nd generations of the Follwers [of the Companions]). His claims of Homosexually being Islamically is completely unfounded, and the only reason why he rejects the classic religious-stances, pertaining to this issue is (exclusively) because these religious-stances do not coincide with his ego/desires, which drive him, with constant/consistent encouragement from ash-Shaytan/the Devil, to continue to call to Sin/blatant, shameless, disobedience to Allah.

    • Gareth, keep the name-calling going and I can see you are too intimidated to do some real scholarship for I’m sure you’ll lose your mind when the diversity of truth comes to the forefront–or you’ll final admit you are fighting your own internalized homophobia. Your words, as childish as you continue to spew them, will add to the list of nonsense you promote…but Alla’s judgment will reveal the ultimate truth. Don’t you agree?

      • What do you mean by Homophobia, Daayiee? If what you mean is: like all sins, Homosexuality is something which I hate for Allah, because it is something which angers Him & has thus made it a Sin to do so, both in His Book, the Qur’an, as well as within the Prophetic-Tradition of His Messenger, the Sunnah, then, yes, by this definition, I am a Homophobe. However, if what you mean is: I personally detest people, only because they’re Homosexual, then, of course, I am not a Homophobe.

        My hatred is not, exclusively, directed towards any particular person; my hatred is, however directed towards the Sin that a person commits. Even, especially, when it comes to myself: I sin, just like any other Muslim, just like any other Human being (Recipients of Revelation not included, because Allah has endowed them with the status of Ma`sum/Sinless [free from committing Sins]). However, the real-issue isn’t so much that we sin (as long as we constantly ask Allah to forgive us, and sincerely work towards correcting ourselves), it is if/when someone (such as yourself, for example) then begins to claim that the Sin/Sins which they do are no longer, Islamically, Mahrum/Prohibited, they begin to encourage others & call others to commit these Sins, as well.

        And, sadly, this applies to you 100%: you are a Homosexual, even though there is tantamount texts, from both the Qur’an & Sunnah, which details the prohibition & the punishment for this particular Sin, you vehemently would rather consciously, expose your own Sins (which is actually an additional Sin, in and of itself) & make your ego/desires your god, aside from Allah, as opposed to keeping your Sins to yourself & by at least admitting to yourself & to others that this lifestyle & the practices connected with it are in fact Sins.

      • Gareth, again and again, you continue to spew you emotions and say you rely upon Quran and Sunnah, when in fact you have nothing in Quran and you rely upon the athar of the Sahaba. Prophet Mohammad never had any thing to say about homosexuality either as religious leader or as governmental leader…Islamic legal scholars have said so…so you rely upon myths made up to please those who swallow whole the tripe passed off as traditions to keep most muslims weak minded, bull-headed and suckling to the orthodox tit of the know it all, one size fits all monolith of Taqleed. If you sin, that’s your issue, and projecting onto others what you perceive as sin is your issue to get over. When you get the memo from Allah that you are sitting in on Allah’s judgment seat, send it out in a pdf so that everyone can read it. You keep riding the merry-go-round and seem to not be getting anywhere…Maybe you should watch out for those unicorns, ahadith collections and other sources you love to quote. Analyze Quran then get back to me if you seek an indepth discussion. If not, save your finger movements and gestures.

      • 1. You have lied upon Muhammad (Peace be upon him): he has clearly mentioned the atrocity of Sodomy, and the beratement of those whom partake in its practice, on the Day of Standing. He has also described how to deal with those whom are caught having sexual-intercourse with members of the same gender.(al-Kaba’ir) He has also mentioned, concerning those whom choose to say things about him which aren’t true (and to say that he did not say/do something which is authentically recorded about him counts as this as well) said that whomever states something/anything about him which is false has made his own place in the an-Nar/Fire.(al-Bukhari)

      • 2. You purposely ignore, deny, commit Kufr (which is exactly what ignorance, denial, rejection is), etc., only to enslave yourself to your ego/desire. I’d really like to know how YOU became an “Imam”. I mean, where did you get your Ijazah/Islamic-Accreditation, from the bottom of a Cracker Jack box?!!!

      • Gareth, when a man or woman are at their wits end, they lash out and latch on to anything they can imagine to make themselves feel “right”, but sadly my brother, you do not fool me not one bit for you are at the end of your cyber-scholarship that is a path of nowhere. Now I am calling the Prophet a “liar”…since I did not know him personally…and of course you do/did…how can/could I call our Prophet a liar??? So I guess you jest for folly. Now if you were objective, you could have said that the legal scholars I refer to were liars, but no you didn’t offer such a statement…again, clarifying for me and others who read your journalistic fumings that you’re falling off the edge into the cyber abyss of Islamic scholarship…do you really take anything you read on the Internet to be sacroscant and undeniable in discussions of Islamic scholarship? Maybe, just maybe the internet is getting to you…pull away while you can. Not unlike Yacoob who didn’t get it that he was swallowed by the whale of his ego, you keep thinking you can sit on the seat of judgment and outdo Allah’s wisdom, justice, compassion and mercy. One day, insha’Allah you’ll hiccup and find yourself in the land of reason and reasoning once again. Gareth, as I said yesterday, when you have something of value to respond to I will do so, otherwise rant, rave, spit and spew, foam at the mouth and write until your fingers crimple into knarled little stumps…I’ll let your madness pass like the seeds of dandilion weeds in the wind and scatter where they may. May Allah continue to guide and bless us all, Ameen.

      • Daayiee, you are a liar:

        1. You lied, by stating that “Prophet Mohammad never had any thing to say about homosexuality either as religious leader or as governmental leader…”. These are your words, not the words of anyone else…you didn’t use any quotation-marks, you didn’t reference anyone’s name to this statement, this was purely your own, personal-statement…there are tantamount proofs which directly go against this lie.(al-Kaba’ir)

        2. Muhammad (Peace be upon him) has mentioned, extensively, the punishment for anyone whom tells a lie against him.(al-Bukhari)

        3. You don’t have to know someone personally, in order to lie about them: there are scores of Islamophobes, whom lie about Muhammad, as well as other Prophets/Recipients of Revelation (Peace be upon them all-together) til this very day, and they don’t know any of them, personally.

        4. You really need to read/study, your knowledge of Islam, generally, the Prophets, particularly/especially, outright sucks: Ya`qub/Jacob (Peace be upon him) was never swallowed by any oceanic-creature; rather, it was Yunus/Jonah (Peace be upon him) whom this happened to.(Stories of the Prophets)

  18. Salam,

    I am disappointed that such a homophobic blog exists. I am a Pakistani heterosexual Muslim woman, but I am a committed ally to the LGBTQ movement because I believe in human rights and freedom. I also don’t think that Allah can create a gay child, and then punish the child for acting on her/his desires. Dear reactionary and bigoted muslims: if you think it is your duty to fight perversions, look around Muslim countries and fight with the pedophiles, with the rapists, with the misogynists, with the racists, with those killing each other on the basis of ‘honor’ and sectarian differences and ideas of family reputation. You are only reinforcing what the islamophobes say about muslims: that we are blind and shortsighted to any social progress and wholly lack empathy and compassion. I have met gay men and women in Pakistan who are wonderful human beings, many of them are working for women’s and children’s rights, and fighting the class based, ‘honor’ based society. They are also systematically oppressed by our “Islamic” legal system and live in constant fear. Most of our honor killings are also based on Islamic law and strict rules and repression of sexuality. Please try to understand what being gay even means before making such comments and using Islam to justify oppression. Muslim throughout history have used their prima facie interpretations of a multifaceted holy book to justify oppression on women, children, animals etc. Now gay people are the new victims. Homophobia is rooted only in ignorance and fear of any difference. If you want to quote the tale of lut to justify your homophobia, what do you say about lesbian women? The quran never mentions women desiring other women, so what are the rules for that? women don’t engage in anal sex, so surely that can’t be haram? but then again, we can’t have double standards for lesbians and gay men, right?

    Learn to appreciate diversity, the way your religion advises you. Learn to imitate the compassion of the Prophet for those who only ask for their own rights and don’t harm others in any way. Even if you think homosexuality is a sin (which I do not), it’s may be personal sin and is not morally wrong (because it involves consentual sex that does not involve a third party). How is someone’s personal life and sexuality bothering you? why not concern yourself with the Muslim men who stare sexually at your sisters because they think they have a right to harass any women not Islamically dressed and the fathers who forcefully marry off their daughters to old men out of fear that they’ll get boyfriends and pollute family piety? these things are morally wrong and oppressive. Homosexuality isn’t! Homosexuals only ask that you do not spread hatred and bullying. They ask what Allah commands.

    May God teach us all compassion and tolerance!

    • You’ve mentioned something that is not only incorrect, Islamically, but also very unintelligent: You mentioned that, “Even if you think homosexuality is a sin (which I do not), it’s may be personal sin and is not morally wrong (because it involves consentual sex that does not involve a third party).”. Now, how in the World can something be a sin & not immoral?!!! The fact that something is a sin is, by definition, proof that something is immoral.

    • For example, Allah specifically says in Surat-il-Isra/the Chapter of the Night-Journey, that “And, don not approach Zina/Sexual-Lewdness: verily it is an immoral act as well as an evil path.”

  19. I was referring to the philosophical definition of morality. By moral, I meant ethical i.e behavior and actions that lead to minimum harm and maximum benefit of society and other sentient beings concerned.

    Anyhow I was brought here through an email thread I was searching. I feel that a debate on this topic will not go anywhere since you don’t seem by your previous comments to be open-minded enough to accept diversity, so I’m going to peace out🙂 Salam!

    • Salaam,

      If you have the time, please refer to my posts above. I’ve addressed the points you mentioned in case you were looking for that.

      As for lesbians, sexual activity is forbidden in all cases except within the confines of marriage. The Islamic definition of marriage is between a man and a woman.

      Please know that this discussion has nothing to do with a lack of compassion, but rather addressing a rule like any other rule. The prohibition here is sexual activity between people of the same gender. It is not and can never be a prohibition of emotions or thoughts — we are judged based on our actions, and that is all Islam is addressing here.

      I urge you to consider the topic analytically rather than personally rationalizing it (“It doesn’t seem fair”, etc.). I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

    • Oh also, as Muslims, we do not define morality according to societal standards at the time. These vary across people/places/eras and are not reliable yardsticks to determine how a human being should be treated.

      Instead, Allah, our Creator, the One who knows us best, knows what justice and true ethical behaviour should be and has laid that out for us in this religion known as Islam. If it were implemented the way it ought to be, without the stupid cultural practises many exercise today, we would be the global standard for morality and ethics.

      • Amin, salaam. After reading your response I see it is the same old Islamic gradualism that promotes the continued misappropriation of Islamic history and the Quranic message by human intercessors. What surprised me most was your comment and I quote: “Instead, Allah, our Creator, the One who knows us best, knows what justice and true ethical behaviour should be and has laid that out for us in this religion known as Islam. If it were implemented the way it ought to be, without the stupid cultural practises many exercise today, we would be the global standard for morality and ethics.” The former part of the comment, I am in total agreement, however, it is the latter part that shows a corruptible human mind supplementing their “judgment” for Allah’s…”If it were implemented the way it ought to be, (as you and the orthodox realm of the Islamic faith see it I presume), without the stupid cultural practises (subjective conclusion here) many exercise today, we would be the global standard (another subjective conclusion that is unsubstantiated here or anywhere else I presume) for morality and ethics.”; I would consider many Muslims of all backgrounds would not agree with your conclusion as you propose, and see a much broader and more inclusive rendering the the Quranic message from Allah.

  20. Daayiee, wa ‘alaikum salaam.

    I must insist that I have provided very specific evidences for my stance, and you instead have only responded with rationalization and emotionally driven points Both of those are important in certain contexts, but actually have no relevance when it comes to determining Allah’s rule. We must look at it objectively and remove any sort of personal bias from it.

    As to my latter comment, I was not referring to homosexual actions as “stupid cultural practises”. I was actually referring to ideas which are decidedly unislamic, such as honour killings, forced child weddings, abuse/mistreatment of women, etc. Those are products of cultural upbringing and have no connection to our deen, yet people seem to make that link all the time. That leads to the assumptions of immorality and injustice drawn about a very moral and just religion.

    • Also, “the way it ought to be” is what is derived by mujtahids, those who extrapolate laws from our texts. I’d like you to please familiarise yourself with the concept of ijtihad if you have not. Claims are given with evidences and it is forbidden to apply bias or draw a conclusion without exhausting all possible resources. Knowing this, I cannot with a sound conscience say that scholars qualified to perform this extrapolation who condemn homosexual relations are simply following orthodoxy.

      • Amin, again, your “the way it ought to be” is just silly…as if “ought” is the operative word in deriving ijtihad. When you know that someone does not know, then you know when someone else does not know, and I know that you do not know. Are you familiar with Islamic law or even a western trained lawyer or solicitor? You pretend that Abrahamic, Christian and Islamic law are not related, even it core values are not the same? Another episode of cyber-scholarship. Enjoy your throne of knowingness.

    • Amin, Salaam. I am glad you made some clarification, but it still remains a subjective rendering of what is inside and what is outside of Islam. As to your claim of an emotional and nonrationalization, or personal bias, your scholarship, dear brother, as I have stated above, it remains a subjective point and not based upon a clear understanding of Islamic history, sunnah and athar, administrative shariah, and urf versus maslaha. Yes, stupid cultural practices have been inculcated into the faith and go far, far, far beyond honor killings, forced weddings, mistreatment of women, blindly following taqlid, cyber scholarship, but also fall upon what is Quran and what is ahadith, what is authentic sunnah and what is athar, and to know what administrative shari’ah is and how it was derived, and much, much more. The goal is justice and since immorality and injustice are quite often subjective, the conclusion that it is also moral and just again falls under the rubric of selective point(s) of view.

      • Wa ‘alaikum salaam.

        With all due respect, I must disagree. Morality is subjective if you allow society to be your standard. My point was that Islam is the standard, and it does not fluctuate. Only the corruption of human thought achieves that.

        I’m afraid you have convoluted the issue, brother. I don’t know what you mean about cyber scholarship (how do you know what I’ve learnt and where I’ve learnt it from?), and I don’t see the relevance of your mentioning the Abrahamic faiths. I never claimed to perform any tafseer on my own, but instead provided some by men much more learned than you and I.

        In the same way that usury is clearly forbidden with an ayah, for which no ambiguity exists whatsoever, homosexual practises are also forbidden. I only asked you for a proof but you respond vaguely with concepts like maslaha and taqlid. What does that have to do with anything? An ayah takes precedence over everything in usul-ul-fiqh.

        The burden of proof is on you, and you have not delivered.

        I’ve said all I can on the issue. My initial posts were to address the sister’s concerns.

        Take care.

      • So says the great Amin. You didn’t respond to the sister’s query, and without knowing the relevance of the Abrahamic faith in the discussion, we can’t have a serious talk. So the most expedient things to do is:…Turning page, brother, turning page. Salaam.

  21. People of Lut were married men who would leave there wive to lust for another man

    I am not married and Allah forbids fornication wether u r gay or not the problem is that even today because u dont address this topic of homosexuality because u r uncomfortable and u beleive its a touchy subject thats your issue not mine this caused married muslim.men in todays society to cheat on there wives and fornicate with men due to fear of loosing there community and faith u r not gonna tell.me that i cannot worship Allah because i share what is truth my sexuality doesnt define me nor my lifestyle nor my beliefs its something that i have had since i could remember and whats crazy is that they insult there children by calling them.gays or there friends yet they have a problem talking about its too sensitive u know harram is between Allah and me

    • “People of Lut were married men who would leave there wive to lust for another man ”

      So, by this statement, you mean to tell me that as long as Men aren’t “lusting” after other Men, then Homosexual-Sex is all fine & dandy, huh?!!! You can’t be serious!!! You obviously have never studied the Qur’an with any seriousness, because, if you did, you would’ve came across the Ayat/Verses which mention in detail that the People of Lot told Lot (Peace be upon him), explicitly, when he offered them to seek-out the Women of the People of Lot, referring to them as his “Daughters, because of the Fatherly station that Allah imposed upon him as a Person of Prophecy (Noble-Qur’an: Chpt.11, V.78), the Men from the People of Lot replied, “You know that we don’t really want your Daughters. You know what we want.”.(Noble-Qur’an: Chpt.11, V.79)

      • No not at all i reference lut because i.wanted to point out that the story mentions married men and in ur present time ot continous to happen and married men lust for men so this is why its important to express your feelings i knew as a child that i had this homosexual feeling but i was told to not say anything to no one cuz those people go to hell to get married to a women even though u have no sexual desire towards them so alot of men because of people like you who dont want to respect nor validate peoples feelings the gay men get married continue to lust for men having intimitate sexual relations with men then doing the same to the wife just like the story of lut

    • And, to reply to this statement, “harram is between Allah and me”: that’s only a true statement if you keep your Sins to yourself. But, once you decide to reveal your Sins publicly, you have no right to complain about others who choose to criticize you. If you don’t want to be criticized, then keep your Sins to yourself.

      • So its a sin to express and share with my ummah that i am attracted to men homosexuality means that a person is atttacted to the same sex it does not mean that i have sex with men
        Allah knows everything Allah has power over everything and i honestly cannot continue a discussion with you because you are not allowing me to share my experience and you refuse to beleive that i knew as a child that i am attracted to the same sex

        Peace Brother
        May Allah bless us and guide us

      • And, this is the beliefs of the Murji’ah: those who believe that Belife & Actions are not connected to one another. Well, news flash: you same People who take on this Murji’i style belief, when it comes to trying to justify your Sins, check this out. I know that proponents of the Homo-Agenda claim that Sexual-Desire is only an Emotuion, and therefore not connected to Sexual-Acts. But,s this is clearly untrue for several reasons: 1. Iman is an Emotion, by virtue of the fact that it’s within the Heart, and the Heart is the House of all Emotion…2. Every action has a motive behind it, as its foundation, said Muhammad himself.(an-Nawawi)…3. There’s absolutely know way that any Human can/will engage in any Sexual-Acts with Person whom they’re not sexually-attracted to. And, we can all agree that Sexual-Attraction is an Emotion: it’s an action of the Heart.

      • Salam
        Answer this question, i already asked but you still have not answered.

        I am muslim i beleive in Allah and the last day i beleive that Quran is the word of our Creator
        Do you beleive that I shouldnt say anything about my sexuality just ore it and live on?
        Also what do i tell other muslims when they ask why i am not married
        What is your solution to men like me who are not attracted to women ?

      • PLAU, you will find homophobes like Gareth are steeped in looking backwards for all there is to know. Islam has it basis through which we can derive some responses to our current circumstances; however, for most of them there is a requirement to think through the process with the evidences before you, and then come to a conclusion that fits the most appropriate way forward, particularly when it encompasses justice, compassion and mercy. As you have found, a number of writers here have none that comes through their writings or their perspectives. As Muslims, we must learn to leave them to their way of thinking and for us to do the same. Allah’s judgment shall come and then and only then will all of us know Allah’s final determination. Otherwise, it’s more of the back and forth. As I continue to educate others, when the greater truth is understood, the lesser truths are subsumed by them. Do not allow folks like Gareth and his ilk to force your thinking into the narrow binding of their understanding of what Allah is, when Quran’s ayyat provides us much broader terms of understanding Allah, as in 18;107-110, they cannot tell you to what extent Allah’s blessings and mercy can be towards you and others…they only pontificate to puff themselves up in “knowingness.” Be good to yourself and more fully develop your relationship with Allah…now that is worthy of your time and efforts and let the thinking and practices of the dry bones rest where they lay.

      • And, the reason why Persons such as Daayiee Abdullah must be exposed is because, ironically, they have knowledge of Islam, but they’ve allowed their Egos/Desires, coupled with the general deception of the Devil, to corrupt Mind & Heart, leading not only themselves, but other Muslims/People astray as well. Him & People like him are those whom Muhammad (Peace be upon him) has described as al-Mujahirun: those who boast of their Sins, as though their Sins aren’t Sins at all…those who are no longer ashamed of the Wrong in which they do…People like Daayiee Abdullah possess no Moral-Compass.

      • It’s not anyone’s damn business as to why you’re not married. And, to the 1st-part of your question: in principle, it’s worse to expose one’s own Sins to the Public than it is to commit Sins themselves.

      • Salam
        So just me sharing that is sinful ? According to you this is what you think ?

        Okay well thanks for your honesty but unfortunantly you still have not come up with a solution I respect your opinion
        But i beleive that honesty is not a sin that just by me sharing this is not sin
        not because its my opinion but because Allah teaches us in Quran to understand each other to aquire knowlegde so brother i will.pray for you because you are not Allah and you have no right to silence and disregard muslims struggles and just by sharing something u beleive its a sin

        Peace to you

      • No, there’s a stark difference between confiding in someone, in confidence, legitimately wanting advice, about a respective Vice/Sin that one is attempting to cope/deal with & one who (shamelessly) boasts of their Vices/Sins, as though these vices/sins aren’t what they are.

      • Quran 6: 52

        Sahih International

        And do not send away those who call upon their Lord morning and afternoon, seeking His countenance. Not upon you is anything of their account and not upon them is anything of your account. So were you to send them away, you would [then] be of the wrongdoers

      • Oh, please, no one is sending you anywhere: no one is declaring Takfir/Disbelief upon you, no one said that you’re an evil Person. But, at the same time, I will never co-sign anyone’s Sins, not even my own. And, I don’t care which Sin it is: a Sin is a Sin.

      • One last thing
        I am currently a subsitute teacher and the last 8 years i was a mental health counselor for homeless youth at covenant house and larkin street youth services and i worked with mentally ill adults in.camarillo, ca
        I wanted to share with u this since u shared what you do in suicide hotline

      • I work with the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, not the National Suicide Hotline, although, I greatly respect their work. Yes, please, share.

    • I can’t believe Daiyee is still coming here with this rhetoric…

      Brother PLAU, I’m going to share with you something I wrote earlier on. Let me know what you think of it.

      ——————————————————————————————————————————-

      People have debated endlessly about homosexuality and whether or not it is something “chosen” or “hard-wired”. Regardless of our stances on it, I think we need to widen the scope of the discussion a bit and realise why we as Muslims are thinking about this in the first place: it is simply to determine where it falls into what Allah has permitted/forbidden. We are judged by actions, and not feelings or emotions. As such, a person who may “naturally be homosexual” but does not act on it for the sake of Allah is in the right, and in fact would be receiving extra blessings as a result of his abstinence.

      My point for mentioning this is that homosexuality being a natural inclination is irrelevant to its permissibility. Muslims get caught up on this a lot, and in response a lot of gays argue that it’s simply not fair that God would condemn them for being the way He created them (which is a valid point, as it is in accordance with the last ayah of Baqarah which states “On no soul does Allah place a burden greater than it can bear”).

      Instead, we need to say that we’ve all been created with desires. Islam tells us how to control these desires, and we act accordingly. We get hungry, but we must refrain from certain food and drink. We feel sexual desires, but they can only be satisfied under certain conditions. No Muslim would disagree with this.

      Acknowledging this, it should then become silly for anyone to suggest that he is willing to abstain from alcohol and pork for the sake of Allah but can’t abstain from their own sexual desires because it “wouldn’t be fair”. Islam is about conviction, not whether you think you know better than your Creator.

      ——————————————————————————————————————————-

      • Salam
        Mashallah may Allah continue to guide you
        I agree Quran is what I beleive and I am realizing is that people dont want to read and understand Quran to find answers they just go along with there personal views or what they hear
        I think you are right

      • PLAU, Gareth and his ilk, once again, slink into ad homimen attacks for they lack the understanding you have been seeking, therefore, the results you have obtained from them…nothing but conjecture. As I stated earlier, Allah is the final determiner, have sabr (patience) and WE (the royal we) will see on the last day.

      • Gareth, salaam. It is not difficult to understand why you continue to dig deeply into your cesspool of name-calling and ad hominen attacks, as when one compares you and Allah, your arms are far too short to box with Allah’s boundless mercy, compassion and justice for His Creation. Once you really reflect through tadabber that your words are useless in intercession for any individual who has a personal and lived iqraa with Allah. Seriously, dude, who are you to “call-the-shots?” Reliance upon words as arrows and needles to prick and be pierced (pun intended) one needs just return all of your little arrows and needles and even provide you with more landscape to take aim. Gareth, maybe some reflection on the Quran would be helpful without all the cyber-gook of Salafist teachings might, just might, provide an opening where the light of Allah will pierce your clouds of doom, making it very clear where your claim of vicegarency ends and Allah’s boundlessness in all directions and dimensions continue. If you have something else, send it, and if a response is needed to make clear for others to reflect, then I’m around. Happy Valentine’s Day to one and all, regardless of your sexual orientation. Salaam.

      • Again, you’re a shameless individual, who is ego/desire driven, bent upon provocating your sick Sins, and encouraging the perpetuation of the Sins of Others.

  22. Gareth, salaam. As I have continued to impress upon you, (with no pun intended on the pressing against you) is that ad homenin attacks reveals the speaker either has no argument and must then utilize name-calling to sway opinion by harping upon things that are not true; or their arguments are so weak, usually meaning they have no argument at all and feel embarrassed because the counter arguments/commentary upholds standards that cannot be denied, even if not proven, as in this case Allah’s love of His Creation of all forms and shapes, both external and internal, and provided transformation in their self-Allah consciousness no other human being can interfere. As a black man I’m pretty sure you’ve heard the adage, “A hard head makes a soft behind,” (no pun intended to imply any desire to be in any form of intimacy with you). Bricks are harder than you head, and bumps are ayyat that your mind is not going to break through that brick wall. Enjoy yourself, brother. Continued peace to you. Salaam.

    • What you’ve mentioned is exactly what you’ve actually done yourself. You’ve constantly attempted to dismiss my position, which has been presented with tantamount evidence, to boot. However, the same “ad homenin attacks”, which you’ve mentioned “reveals the speaker either has no argument and must then utilize name-calling to sway opinion by harping upon things that are not true; or their arguments are so weak, usually meaning they have no argument at all and feel embarrassed because the counter arguments/commentary upholds standards that cannot be denied, even if not proven”, are the exact same things which you, yourself, commit, as soon as someone provides evidence against your justification to indulge in a Sin that has been one of the major reasons why an entire Ancient-People were destroyed (the People of Lot), as well as something which is viewed as deplorable, according to both the Qur’an & Sunnah/Prophetic-Tradition.

      In short, you’re just the “Pot calling the Kettle Black.”. And, me being an African-American is really not the point, so I have no idea why that’s even been a part of your argument, like that famous (often uttered by Afro-Americans) saying really carries any substantial weight in this particular discourse.

      • Gareth, there you go again acting like a junior high school kid finger pointing, and applying the logic, because someone else does something then you have to match them in the same “wrong,” and thus, it is your “best” defense to act bad yourself. Also, the black references do have a meaning and you want to ignore those words of wisdom. Ignoring something does not make it disappear. Again and again, as is your usual style, you state you have ‘evidence and facts,’ but in truth those “things” are not evidence and facts that lead to the depth of truth found in the Quran, though it does add up to a humanly derived, power and control based law, that punishes other human beings–not a Quranic truth that sets the human spirit free. As you have stated you are not an Islamic scholar–though you have done some studying–appropriating the language of cyber-Islamists commentaries to “prove” your point does not make your point valid or truthful as it relates to Quranic ethics. I do understand where you are coming from and it’s not from a place of knowing Quran nor Quranic ethics. Basically, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is one of those “foolishness meant” moments–intentionally applied–and not progress and improvement. When you derive theories that move the whole of the Ummah forward, let me know. Until then, may you find the place to be at peace.

      • You really need to just stop trying to circumvent the conversation, attempting to make me look like I’m jus pulling out opinions & views out of my head. My views/opinions are based exclusively upon what’s mentioned in the Texts within the Qur’an & Sunnah/Prophetic-Tradition. You & People like you are simply Persons who are Hell bent upon worshipping/obeying your own Egos/Desires, as oppose to worshipping/obeying Allah, the Creator/Lord of the Universe. I truly feel sorry for you, because the more you attempt to justify your Sins, the further distant you become from the Favor, Mercy, Blessing of Allah. You need to sincerely revere (respect/fear) Allah, and set your affairs in order, beg for His Forgvieness for being a Fasiq/Rebellious-Sinner, or else you may be upon & die upon a Path othe than Islam, which you won’t be able to come back from. I truly want wgat’s best for the Muslims, but the Muslims must want what’s best for themselves first.

      • Gareth, salaam. When will you begin to understand my point? I say it to you very clearly and you ignore my words because you can’t fathom the depth of what I am saying. What you call studying is not studying, it’s regurgitation. You are not at a level of comprehending Quran’s depth and breath of Allah’s diversity in/of Creation. As you return to the same cyber-based “education” courses you have taken provides you with a “lesser” understanding of the “larger” Quranic truths because you depend upon human interpretations rather than reading Quran for yourself and contemplating the message through your iqraa…best key to getting closer to Allah. Again, one of the reasons you keep harping on “sin” when you don’t understand what “sin” is in relationship to the greater concepts that the larger truths and their “daleel” subsume the lesser truths as stereotypes and/or excuses to bind by human interpretation. Gareth, I for one is not afraid of dying, it’s inevitable for all of Allah’s creation, so attempting to play the “fear” card is again typical of your level of debate. It is obvious to me that you’re not that familiar with the Quran, nor the shari’ah system of human interpretation, and the rules you apply without knowing their origins. Those who know that you don’t know, know that you don’t know. But you keep thinking that you know, but you don’t know that you don’t know. So does that mean that those who do know, still know that you don’t know, so you will continue to not know until you accept that you don’t know, and then select to learn more. If it takes going to China to gain knowledge, then travel there to gain it. I’ve been there many times, lived there for several years as a student and expat too, and recently spent time there for the umpteenth time. Some Muslims in China have a beautiful way of expressing Islam. You might learn a thing or two.

      • Oh, I get it, you want me to get turnt-out to the Homosexuality, as you did. That clearly explains why you’ve so adamantly mentioned your experiences in China, and wherever else you’ve been, it’s super clear now. You are now blatantly attempting to call People to the same Sin/Vice that you’ve chosen to place on a level higher than obedience to Allah. And, you think that attempting to insult my Intelligence, or Knowledge of Islam, is going to have me enamored towards your sick provocation, propaganda: think again. It’s very easy to see that you’re simply just another one of ash-Shaytan’s/the Devil’s indirect recruiters to Sin/Vice, by making yourself a Slave to your Ego/Desires, as opposed to making yourself a Slave to Allah, your Creator/Lord.

        And, to add insult to injury, you have enough general knowledge of Islam to know that all of what you’re calling People to is completely wrong. But, you & People like you, who are insincere & desire-driven, prey upon the religious ignorance/low self-esteem of Laymen, to promote your sinful agendas.

      • Gareth, salaam. It’s apparent no matter what form of conversation I may take in speaking to your lack of understanding, inability to contemplate beyond your limited views of what the possibilities of what Islam is and can continue to be, and the weakness in thinking outside the box of human-generated Salafist philosophy, you provide ample reasoning to end this discussion–even if it is for the moment–until you and those of your ilk figure out you cannot limit Allah to your views alone…Allah is the Creator of us all, and in that position of all that is all, your comment degrade our faith rather than lift as ayyat of Allah creation.

        Ayyat 2:186 – (Malik) When my servants question you about Me, tell them that I am very close to them. I answer the prayer of every suppliant when he calls Me; therefore, they should respond to Me and put their trust in Me, so that they may be rightly guided.

        Thus, I leave you with 2:256, and 2:286–(2:256) “There shall be no coercion in matters of faith. Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing;” and (2:286), “God does not burden any human being with more than he is well able to bear.” in his favor shall be whatever good he does, and against him whatever evil he does. “O our Sustainer! Take us not to task if we forget or unwittingly do wrong! Oh our Sustainer! Lay not upon us a burden such as Thou didst lay upon those who lived before us! O our Sustainer! Make us not bear burdens which we have no strength to bear! “And efface Thou our sins, and grant us forgiveness, and bestow Thy mercy upon us! Thou art our Lord Supreme: succour us, then, against people who deny the truth!.”

      • What you’ve mentioned from What/Verses of the Qur’an have absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. What has everything to do with this conversation are your constant betrayal of Islam, by calling People of Sins which are fueled by lusts, egos, desires. Also, all that you’ve done is attempt to manipulate the Integrity of Islam with your selfishly sinful agenda. All you’ve done is make your own indictment against yourself, because every time that you speak, you prove more & more your insincerity to Islam, by provocating a Sin that your ego & desires are connected to. You’ve allowed your sexual lifestyle to become your Tag hut/Idol. You’ve only slandered me, by accusing me of taking my knowledge/understanding of Islam from a sectarian point of view, just because my stance goes against the Sins which you are willing to blatantly/shamelessly do in the Sight of Allah, without regret, conscience, consequence, shame, remorse.

  23. Gareth, Happy Valentine’s Day to you. Since you’re so aware of who is “sinful” and who is not, as well as what Allah’s final determination is going to be, please give us all a look at your memo from Allah stating same. Additionally, you are not aware of my relationship with Allah, and not having such knowledge, how can you honestly attempt to berate another human being based upon what you know about their relationship with Allah? As I have stated many, many, and many more time before, when you have nothing to support your argument (daleel), or you can’t find more definitive cyber-based Wahabist or Salafist tomes, you revert to name-calling and other childish, junior high school behaviors. Grow up, dude, grow up. As a journalist, you should have a wealth of vocabulary to express your point(s) of view and how to support it. So I will have to presume…not assume (because you know what that means)…you have nothing more to say that has or adds any value to the discussion. Stay warm, brother, it’s cold outside.

    • Don’t wish me any happy Pagan-Holidays. Anyway, you’ve still only resorted to name-calling, all of te things that you’ve been constantly been accusing me of doing. You’re going back-and-forth purposely, in order to make your position more valid, when in all reality, you can never justify a Sin, regardless to how close in proximity that you to be with Allah. A Person can be as close to Allah is they want. But, that doesn’t mean that they have a green-light to propagate Sins which have been blatantly banned, outlawed, shunned,within both the Qur’an & Sunnah/Prophetic-Tradition, regardless to how deeply one has a desire for it, popular this Sin is in Secular/Western Popular-Culture.

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